Re: Ducks and Souls

From: tgpedersen
Message: 25828
Date: 2003-09-15

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "m_iacomi" <m_iacomi@...> wrote:
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" wrote:
>
> >>>> So one should rephrase: "Dr. J.S., based on his general
> >>>> knowledge background, believes that duck was a symbol of the
> >>>> universe, a conclusion not shared by others.".
> >>>
> >>> Note J.S. mentions duck with goose, Latin 'anser',
German 'Gans'
> >>
> >>> *gHans-; note the unexpected initial, pointing to loan (and
> >>> strengthening the suspicion of a pun).
> >>
> >> Why pun?
> >
> > Bad formulation. The presence of one more word beginning in an-,
not
> > the variation in the anlaut consonant, strengthens that suspicion.
>
> From my point of view that's not enough for suspicion. Hypotheses
> non fingere.
>
> >>>> Not too much for evidence of a link with soul...
> >>>
> >>> Your conclusion about J.S.'s conclusion was hasty...
> >>
> >> Nope. You indicated a source to support your claim about linking
> >> ducks with the notion of `soul` for some pre-historical moment. I
> >> pointed out that your source doesn't offer too much support for
> >> your claim.
> >
> > You were guessing J.S.'s made up the duck-soul link all by
himself.
> > That was hasty, given the other evidence easily found on the net.
>
> Still wrong. J.S. himself claims his interpretation (link "duck-
> universe" not "duck-soul") is not shared by other historians. The
> links you provided over the net do not point towards a "duck-soul"
> link but to other cultical interpretation ("duck-Sun" or not
> precised).
>
> > Yes, and the Andreas Hårde article is one of them. The title shows
> > it contains some type of discussion of the duck-soul link.
>
> I'm sorry to seem so nasty, but I fail to see any "soul" word in
> the title of the article.
>
> >>> Andreas Hårde, 1998
> >>> Andlighet eller anklighet i Hallstatt?
> >>> Spiritualism or just ducks in the Hallstatt culture?
> >>> A critical study of the understanding of the iconography
> >>> from a structural point of view with reference to the
> >>> mythopoeia and interpretation of myth structures
> >>> associated with bird depictions from Central Europe
> >>> during the Urnenfelder period and the Hallstatt period
> >>
> >> The same: list of references. I haven't read his article and
> >> you didn't provided at least a significent extract, along with
> >> his bibliography.
> >
> > I haven't read it either. I just happened to know that the theory
> > existed. If you you want to satify your curiosity, read the
>article.
>
> Aaaah, so you didn't read it, but it just happens you know the
> guy's theory makes a link "duck-soul" and you infer this article
> should cunningly expose it. Have I got your point correctly?
> Is this the only "factual" support for your "duck-soul" link?!
>
Swedish 'ande' "spirit, soul", 'anka' "duck".

> >> ... but doesn't tell what was actually the supposed cultic
> >> meaning.
> >
> > So now you have one more reason for ordering Hårde's article.
>
> Well, actually no. It is not me the one very interrested in
> Halstattian ducks, it is you. You should have not claimed that
> supposed link duck-soul without having read at least a piece of
> evidence; rumors can be spread by anyone but fail to make it as
> science. I was expecting you to be able to give here a phrase
> from an article or a book, supporting that idea, not to make a
> research over the net in order to justify aposteriori that your
> conviction about duck-soul link is just fine. You presented
> some links speaking about various cultic means of the ducks,
> none of these being with the soul; now you pretend me to try
> to find a quotation supporting your unsubstantiated claim?! :-)
>

> >>> It took me 30 minutes to find these references on google. I wish
> >>> you guys would do your homework better.
> >>
> >> This was not my research homework and
> >
> > The one you didn't do?
>
> As said, Halstatt ducks are not exactly the subject of most books
> on my work desk and unfortunately I find little arguments in order
> to make a drastical change of the situation in near future.
>
> >> OTOH your initial message was claiming that J.S. provides support
> >> for your duck <-> soul link, not that ducks could have had some
> >> cultic meaning according to various authors. Well, you still have
> >> to argue that link.
> >
> > Yeah, right. Happy reading.
>
> Thx a lot.
>

I first read about the idea that the duck in Hallstatt art represents
the soul or spirit of a person or animal in Claus
Deleuran's "Illustreret Danmarkshistorie for Folket". The *an- 'pun'
connection is my idea, in order to explain why this symbol was chosen
(or maybe how the duck and goose got their names?).

Torsten