Re: [tied] phonetic nature of PIE occlusives

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <petegray@...> wrote:

> >PIE phonology. Various sources differ
> > regarding phonetics of the stop series (and as to number of
> > series).
>
> There are only two questions here:
> (a) three velar series or two? (Should we reconstruct plain *k?)
> (b) fourway contrast in each series or three? (Should we

reconstruct tH

> etc?)
>
> On the first, the argument against three velar series (*k', *k, *kw

etc)

> seems to be lost. There are two IE languages where traces of the

three-way

> series are claimed (Albanian and Luwian), but some people dispute

this

> evidence. If you take an algebraic approach to reconstruction,

then *k

> represents those original velars that do not assibilate in the satem
> languages. If you take a phonetic approach, you have some

difficulties, but

> the suggestion that *k represents the uvular /q/ seems to solve

them.

You've forgotten your own post (
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/4978 ), which pointed
out that Latin also shows a 3-way contrast, even though it merged
k^w, kw and kW. It was also spotted longer ago see (
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/8637 )

> On the second argument, there is less agreement, but still a fairly

wide

> consensus that, apart from onomatopoeic words, the tH, pH, kH

series should

> not be reconstructed for PIE. That creates a whole bunch of

problems, which

> linguists are still playing with. But it does seem moderately

clear that tH

> etc derive most probably from t + laryngeal H.

There's also (c) the glottalic hypothesis - that *t was really [tH],
*d was [?t] (pre-glottalised) and that *dH was really [d], which
makes Armenian, Thacian and Germanic look more conservative. The
problem is that without [th], the PIE consonant scheme is very odd.
(The attested Sanskrit-type arrangement is also fairly rare.) The
nearest systems to PIE are reported from West Africa - discussed in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/16763 et seq., and
there is also the same 3-way contrast as standard PIE in Kelabit (
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/16756 ).

You might also like to look at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/16747 - the view from
a defender of *tH but with a concession to the glottalic theory.

Richard.