Re: [tied] Enclosed Places (was: The unexplained link between Greek

Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:

> 12-07-03 23:44, alex wrote:
>
>> This is a posiblity. Against this posiblity is the meaning. For a
>> borrowing from Slavic, there are not semantical differences or
>> semantical developments. As far I know there are not such deviation
>> for borrowign from Slavic, the loaned words having the same meaning
>> as in Slavic.
>
> First, you are wrong about there being no cases of semantic change
> upon borrowing from Slavic into Romanian. I can supply example, if
> needed, though the exercise is pointless: semantic change can
> _always_ happen.

I did say:"As far I know there are not such deviation for borrowign from
Slavic.."

>> If there is in Slavic the meaning "fence" then it can be a loan
>> from Slavic. If not, then it is not.
>
> Wrong (see above), also because there might have been a specialisation
> of meaning in _Slavic_ after the word had been borrowed into Albanian
> and Romanian. (The meaning of Germanic *gardaz was also fairly
> general, but has become narrowed down in Modern English <yard>).

Hard. In both languages the word specialised itself in the same way.

>
>> Do you have in Slavic the word
>> "gardU"= fence? Not simmilars like " umgezeunte platz, stadt, usw
>> usw. Simply, fence. Is it?
>
> The existence of the verb *gorditi 'enclose, protect with a fence',
> and of derivatives like *ob-gordU 'garden' (which have nothing to do
> with towns but much to do with fences) makes early Slavic *gordU
> 'fence, palisade' at least a well-supported possibility.
>
> Piotr

With other words, you try to defence your assumtion on probabilties,
your right, of course:-)
The existence of the verb "gorditi" does not imply automaticaly a fence
but just a protection, Absperrung, wich Absperrung is not a fence, but
can be of several kind.Both languages have too the verb and some more
derivatives and in so far I am informed they are as follow:

Alb:
gardh, gardhec, gardhim, gardhiqe, gardhishe, the verb "gardon",
As a loan from South Slavic there is "gradinë"= garten

Rom:
gard, gãrduT, gãrduleT; Now, there are the words which present a
methathesis:
ingrãdi(umzäunen), grãdiS, grãdiSte, a lot of toponyms which are called
"GrãdiSte" see Alb. "Zgërdish"

For Slavic we have to remember the Sout Slavic "grad"(city), "gradina"
but the Russian "o-grada" too and the Rom. "ograda" too.
Which is in fact the Slavic word? The one with metathesis or the another
one?

Alex