Re: substratum ( it was Re: Creole Romance?)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <petegray@...> wrote:

>> are there words from French substratum which are to find in the
>> substratum of Spanish or Rom. for example?
>
> Actually substrate influence is, more often than not, just assumed
> in the Romance languages - it is rather difficult to find clear
> examples of how a substrate language has influenced the Romance
> dialect which emerged.

When a similar linguistical pattern occurs on a region roughly
corresponding to a common ancient substrate and there is no other
argument against the hypothesis, one may cautiously infer :) that
the characteristic is due to substrate (e.g. rounded [ü] in France
and N Italian dialects is thought to be the result of substratal
Celtic influence).

> Many of the arguments work backwards - since French (or Spanish or
> whatever) has this feature or word, and other Romance languages
> don't, then it must be substrate.

The basical principle is that a word has to come from somewhere
(if it's not an internal construction). If the word is not to be
found in mother language, nor in historical neighbors' tongues,
one may cautiously assume it *could* be from substrate.

> It is much easier to see variations in Romance languages as
> layers of history, with innovations spreading from Italy;

This theory is incomplete. It contains a good part -- that from
some historical (long) moments onwards, some innovations no longer
reached "marginal areas" of the Romania -- but no more than that
(thanks, Matteo :0) ).

> Sardinian relatively isolated from the innovations, Romanian
> separated from them in the 3rd century,

As proved by linguistical arguments, that is not true. Eastern
Romance progressively separated from Western Romance along the
4th century.

> and the others more in touch with them for a bit, before losing
> contact.

They didn't lose contact. Just changed areas of convergence.

> So this discussion of substrate may be an over-concentration on
> just one issue, when there are others at play as well.

The same holds for concentrating on marginal areas theory.

Regards,
Marius Iacomi