Re: [tied] Re: Elbow, forearm

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:32:47 +0000, Richard Wordingham
<richard.wordingham@...> wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 23:58:04 +0000, Richard Wordingham
>> <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:
>>
>> >I gather that 'ablaut now holds few
>> >secrets'. How do the various words
>> >for elbow, forearm, e.g. English
>> >'ell', Latin 'ulna', Greek
>> >'o:lene:', 'o:le:r' and 'o:llon' all
>> >relate?
>>
>> I cannot find a Greek form o:le:r in IEW, EIEC or Boissacq.
>>
>> The Greek forms given are <o:léne:>; <o:lé:n>, <-énos> and (Hes.)
><o:llón>
>> (IEW <ô:llon>).
>
><o:lé:r> must be a misprint for <o:lé:n> in the Oxford Etymological
>Dictionary. It also gives <ô:llon> - is this stress a lexicographic
>ghost?

The word is taken from Hesychius. Since there is only one surviving 15th
c. manuscript, that we have two different readings in this case is somewhat
strange, although I don't know what state the manuscript (or
copies/reprints of it) is in. Other than that, the words in Hesychius were
already difficult for / unknown to speakers of Koinê Greek when the
dictionary was written (5th c.?), so it's unlikely that the exact place and
type of the accent have in all cases been reliably transmitted.

>Thank-you for the explanation. I'm tempted to present the PIE root
>as h1oh3len- to those of limited understanding.. Does h1&3léy-
>appear anywhere but Tocharian?

I don't think so. My soundlaws require **ín > *éy, and the Tocharian form
fortunately prevents that from being pure speculation in this case.

Pokorny does list a bunch of words from *lei- "to bend" under the same
heading *el-, *ele(:)i-, *le(:)i- "biegen", *olin(:)na: "Ellenbogen", but I
see no evidence there for any initial vowel/schwa/laryngeal, so I'd keep
those separate.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...