Re: "vatër" vs "vatra"; "veter-" vs "batran"

From: tolgs001
Message: 22664
Date: 2003-06-04

[Sorry for my previous posting: I touched Return by
mistake, and...]

>Less the meaning of "bãtrân" which is not related
>to soldier but just "old" for animate.

Indeed, in recent Romanian (at least 5 centuries),
masc. "batrân" fem. "batrâna" mean only "old"
man and woman respectively (can be used too for
"old animal"). Noone thinks of old soldiers.

>And it ought to remember there are two words
>more from Latin which means

But do not neglect the details referring to
veteranus variants and reflexes in other
Romance languages. Details kindly provided by
several members of this group.

>[vetulus >] veclus > vechi= old for inanimate
>vetulus > vãtui = old for animate.

Are you sure it is not vitellus > vatui? I don't
have the dictionary at hand (until tomorrow).

>There is the word "bãtrânior" which is given by DEX as
>derived from... "bãtrâior". We agree that "bãtrânior"
>sounds a bit "unangenehm" in Rom and "bãtrâior" is the
>one who sounds "OK".
>A such confirmation (as the derivation of bãtrânior from
>bãtrâior) will confirme more that _not_ "veteranus"

This judgment is more than... abenteuerlich: Rum. "batraior"
is a mere derivation of Rum. "batran." A diminutival one.
With the meaning: "quite old now; not one of the youngest"
or so; it depends on the context and on... sarcasm, but
no one will use it when the old person is really old.

(And the -n- thing becoming a [j] once was quite common;
e.g. "tu spuni" [spunj] is attested in texts 3-4 centuries
old for "tu spui" [spuj], but "spuni" is said still today
in certain small areas (I can confirm it for Banate, at
least in the... Serbian part of it.))

Try to make distinction between Latin -> Romanian
transformations in general and old Romanian > newer
Romanian and > Latest Romanian derivations/transfor-

>but a root like "vatar/vater" which looks very
>appropiate to Latin > "veter-".

Nu mal sachte! I'd put the question this way: "is
Rum. vatră = Alb. vatër?" If yes, then I'd ask:
"is Alb. vatër related to Lat. vetus, veteris?"

Rum. vatră means hearth/oven; home; Heimat. AFAIK
it has nothing "old" (vet-er-) in it. I mean as
*Romanian* semantics. While "batran" and "veteran"
really have something in common: being old. Its
counterpart for *things* is "vechi," another Lat.
"vet-" derivation. Besides, the examples that were
shown us in other Romance idioms illustrate that
veter- > vetr<somethin'> also mean/t something
referring to being old.

>Here, as in "vita/viata", "vitelus/viTel" is allways
>a small difference, but enough for not allowing these
>words to derive from Latin.

I'm maybe wrong, but the speculation *vivitia for
Rum. "viaTa" probably doesn't take into consideration
a possible "viu, vie" (= Lat vivus, viva) + Rum.
feminine suffix "-atză". (NB: Until 1954, the official
spelling of the word was "vieaTă.") As for vitellus
and viTel, I don't see your problem. As though
there were no other examples in which Lat. -t- turns
-T- in Romanian. How would you react upon seeing that
Hungarian borju (calf) turns boci [botzi] when you
want to use a diminutival... Koseform for calf. Since,
in t-T anyone'd see some relationship, but in r-T?
So let's cease standing like vitelli ante new portas. :-)