Re: PIE *ghe(n)d

From: tolgs001
Message: 21912
Date: 2003-05-15

>no. Hungarian has a lot of Rom. Loans. there is a
>lot of works out there which show us this .

Kinda wishful thinking. There are Romanian loanwords in
Hungarian, but the Hungarian loanwords in Romanian
(including those that Hungarians themselves had borrowed
from others) exceed them in number and importance.

>>But if in Albanian it's the mere (primeval?) meaning
>>"to grab," then I'd assume that, both in Romanian and in
>>Hungarian, this word is a loanie, since it only has the
>>extended, figurative meaning - namely the "comprehendere,"
>>but not the simple "prehendere" (or - to put it in
>>Romanian - only "cuprinde," but not "prinde" as well.)
>
>I am afraid I don't understand what you want to say here.

Daca pe albaneza are (si) sensul (probabil primar) "a prinde,
a apuca", e de presupus ca imprumut atat in magh., cat si
in româna: in acestea cuvantul are exclusiv sensul de a
cuprinde, intelege, nu si a prinde/apuca.

>It is not. The /un/ > /în/ in Rom it simpy did not happen
recentely but
>at a very fara away time see Latin sunt, rom "sânt". Certainly
not in
>the time of the first contacts with Hungarians and more sure, not
later.

Some of these vocal transitions back and forth
happen even today. And I wouldn't automatically apply
transformation rules of late Latin > proto-Romanian to
phonetical exchange patterns between Hungarian and
Romanian. In this case I'm afraid that what's good for
the goose isn't good for the gander.

Regardless of reloans & al. speculations: those examples,
gond-gând, bolond-bolând and bot-bâtã are IMHO perfectly
valid. On top of that, in the latter 2 cases, those who
live in a real "interface" with respect to the Hungarian
language communities don't use the general Romanian
variants, but ones that are closer to the Hungarian
words: bolund and botã. And this despite the fact that
the natives are very well aware of the general variants
used in other areas, those with the [I] sound: bolând
and bâtã.

Between them there didn't exist a direct lineage: we
shouldn't care whether Hung. gond and bolond are based
on IE etymons - what's important, in Romanian they're
borrowed from Hungarian, along with such important words
as "hotar, a hotãrî, chip, a chibzui". Much in the same way
as Romanian borrowed modern lexical items from the
international pool of Latinisms and French lexems, but via...
Russian and German.

George