Re: [tied] Re: Ardagast/Radogost

--- Piotr Gasiorowski <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
wrote:

> George,
>
> For easier reference, I'll split the thread and deal
> exclusively with
> Ardagast before addressing the other questions.
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> > GK: ARDAGAST is the recorded name of a 6th c.
> "Sklav" leader.
> It is not certain that this is a Slavic name (B.
> Struminski, "Were
> the Antes Eastern Slavs?" , HARVARD UKRAINIAN
> STUDIES, III-IV (1979-
> 1980), pt.2, pp. 786ff. argued that it wasn't, and
> suggested a Gothic
> provenance.)
>
> (Piotr)But as far as I'm aware, <arda-> is

meaningless in

> Gothic terms,

******GK: What do you think of Abdullah's non-Gothic,
but still non-Slavic reconstruction?*****

> while for Slavic we reconstruct *�rdU [�rdU] as the
> protoform or
> <radU>, a well-known adjective and onomastic
> element. The name
> <radogastU> is excellently attested, as are other
> Slavic names with
> <rado-> or <-radU>. The Slavic etymology is
> therefore entirely
> unproblematic, while the Germanic ones leaves us
> with an unsolved
> problem (plus the question why the "Sklavs" should
> have been Gothic).

*****GK: As to the latter. I criticized Struminski for
drawing unwarranted conclusions on the basis of the
(allegedly) non-Slavic names of Antic and Sklavinian
leaders with respect to the ethnicity of their people.
I'd have to look at his article again to see how he
argued for his view of ARDAGAST as a name.
Historically, there is no problem in entertaining the
view that it might have been non-Slavic since (a)
Jordanes points out that "barbarians" were fond of
such borrowings (with examples), and (b) there is
archaeological evidence that expanding Slavic
communities incorporated Gothic, Alanic, and other
communities as they spread out. Many of the alleged
"Gothic" loans into Slavic are such as pertain to the
identity and activity of military leaders (Lowmianski
did some work on this in vol. 1 of his Poczontki
Polski), so the fact that historically attested
leaders of Slavs bore Gothic (or other non-Slavic)
names would not be particularly surprising.=== As to
your Slavic interpretation of ARDAGAST evolving into
RADOGOST, I have some queries. (1) We had earlier been
looking at different evolutions of some reconstructed
originals (examples *grod, *vlod, *molk. The
contention being that by the 9th c. South and West
Slavic were involved in metathetic, and East Slavic in
pleophonic, developments). Why would the former not
have given ADRA from ARDA (is it because of the
initial vowel?); and is the attested form RADOGOST
West/South Slavic? Would one expect something like
ARADAGOST in East Slavic? (2) Are Slavic
interpretations of PERIGAST and DAURIT (ARDAGAST's
buddies) available?******

>
> > Also: if the original ARDAGAST is a garbled
> RADAGAST,
>
> The advantage of the Slavic explanation is that it
> needn't be garbled
> at all. *[�rdagastU] is precisely how we reconstruct
> the old
> pronunciation of <radogostU>, a name that does not
> have to be
> invented.
>
> > it is comparable to RADAGAISUS (+405). And the
> -GAST ending seems
> quite Germanic ( cf. ARBOGAST).
>
> Slavic onomastic *-gostU is just as good as Germanic
> *-gastiz. Both
> are independently inherited reflexes of the same IE
> word. As I have
> said before, *[a] in *[-gastU] is just a way of
> transcribing the
> early Slavic pronunciation of *o.
>
> Piotr
>
>

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