Re: Germanic Scythians?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> > <gknysh@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > > > Those that comment Snorri and Saxo (who also
> > places
> > > > the "Odin the
> > > > man" in Byzantium) when trying to explain how
> > these
> > > > sources are using
> > > > each other's material assume (just one theory)
> > that
> > > > when the authors
> > > > place "Odin" there, their source may have
> > contained
> > > > a reference
> > > > to "Bosporus" in the sense of "Cimmerian
> > Bosporus",
> > > > which the authors
> > > > have then misunderstood as referring to the
> > "real"
> > > > Bosporus.
> > >
> > > GK: The problem here is that the Cimmerian
> > > Bosporus points to the Bosporan Kingdom, and not
> > to
> > > "Asaland" or "Vanaland". We can dismiss any
> > adaptation
> > > of the Troy Legend to Nordic history as
> > imaginative,
> > > of course, but we certainly have no evidence about
> > the
> > > possibility of using Panticapaeum as an alternate
> > > "Troy".
> > (T)I think this means there's no room in Bospoan
> Kindom
> > history for such
> > an event. Care to elucidate? Emigrations, unlike
> > immigrations, are
> > hard to document archaeologically.
>
> ******GK: This is why it seems useless to continue
> discussing this issue with you, Torsten. You have,
> unfortunately, what seems to be some sort of religious
> obsession with Snorri's account(s). Or, in modern
> parlance, an ideological obsession. You will never
> accept anything as constituting disproof of your idee
> fixe. You will come back to it again and again, with
> the same arguments. Take your last point. If I say (as
> I have already many times) that there is no evidence
> to indicate that migrants from the Bosporan Kingdom
> (or Asaland or whatever) settled in Bastarnia, or
> Thuringia or wherever in the time frame you have
> selected, you will respond that they left no traces,
> or that they changed culture, or anything at all it
> seems.

Excuse me? I said it's difficult to prove someone emigrated from a
place. The you go on about places people might have immigrated to.

>Once a hypothesis has been shown to have no
> viable scientific basis, it should properly be
> dismissed. Your unwillingness to do so betrays
> unscientific motivations.******

I asked you a question. I you don't want to answer it, fine.
As for ideological obsession with Snorri: I'm Danish, this is
supposedly part of the history of my country, so what do you expect?
And if this is ideological, how would you then characterize your own
refusal to even consider it?

> >

> > >There is in any case a major contradiction in
> > > the accounts of the Snorra Edda and of the
> > > Heimskringla [Odin from a "misunderstood" Bosporus
> > vs.
> > > Odin from "Asaland"] which is reminiscent, in a
> > way,
> > > of other contradictions in Snorri's genealogies.
>
> >(T) True, but Ynglingatal claims he had possessions
> both
> > places.
>
> ******GK: There is no historical record of anyone
> having large possessions in both Asia Minor and
> "Asaland" in 50 BC. So the claim is spurious. We might
> surmise that this is Snorri's attempt to reconcile two
> incompatible versions: the Troy Legend and the Asaland
> hypothesis. Having opted for the latter, he keeps the
> former in the mention of Odin's "possessions" in
> Tyrkland.******
> >

Exactly. I agree.

> > >These
> > > contradictions don't really matter in the context
> > of
> > > real history. And you can't legitimately combine
> > > elements of the two, esp. as to directions.
> > (T)Yes, but I was wondering about Trittenheim's
> > sources.
>
> ******GK: You have yet to refute the contention that
> 'Hunibald' was a forgery.*****

This is what I know of the 'Hunibald' affair. The emperor demanded to
see Trithemius' sources. Trithemius claimed they had been destroyed
in a fire. After that everyone assumed Trithemius lied. But does this
constitute proof that Trithemius used _no_ genuine sources? If that
were the case, where does his 'Wechtam' come from?

> >
> > >The story
> > > of "Odin" simply makes no sense whatever the
> > source.
> > > There are too many discoordinated variables.
> > Including
> > > the existence of yet a third Bosporus (or
> > > "Ellipaltar") in classic Norse times: the
> > connection
> > > between the Baltic Sea and Lake Ladoga via the
> > Neva to
> > > the important Norse colonies of Old Ladoga and
> > > Holmgardr.*******
> >
> > Please enlighten me on "Ellipaltar", that
> > discoordinated variable.
>
> ******GK: You can start with the mention in
> Heimskringla. It is also Saxo's "Hellespont".*****
> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >(T) But as regards the "north, then west"
> > > direction,
> > > > cf
> > > > > > this abstract
> > > > > > from "Hunibald":/etc../
> > > > > GK: What do these incredible stupidities
> > > > have to
> > > > > do with historical science?
> > > > >
> > > >(T) The issue was where the "north, then west"
> > came
> > > from
> > > > in Snorri. He
> > > > and Trittenheim might have used similar sources.
> > >
> > > GK: The numbers of "Hunibald" are very
> > > reminiscent of the approach of Exodus.
> > (T)True, which are ascribed to later redactors, thus
> > logically secondary.
>
> *****GK: You have yet to demonstrate that there were
> other than "secondary redactors" so to speak
> (:=))))*****
> >

Torsten