John:
>Glen, when people move they tend to take their language with them!
>Surely you don't see languages "moving" whilst people don't?
In the future, when discussing a "movement", specify WHICH KIND of
movement you are speaking of as attested in the archaeological records.
The movement that you speak of, if I understand is a _cultural_
movement, where "culture" is definable as a particular pattern of
physical materials left behind (that is, particular "patterns" such
as the way pots are created, pastoralism versus agricultural, etc,
that may be used to identify this "culture").
You are not discussing a population movement so your point is misleading
yet again. There is a general _cultural_ movement from the south
Caspian to the north Pontic and one from Anatolia into Europe during
the neolithic, if I understand correctly. This does not equate with
population movement because cultural spread can be motivated by trade
(and we know there was much trade in the neolithic so this is highly
probable, in fact).
>In these cases because the people were moving undoubtably their language
>shifted in all probability too.
You exxagerate the probability. There are still linguistic reasons to
avoid an Anatolian origin of IE.
>Glen, check out Bomhards map of "The Nostratic Homeland" p.125 in his
>Chapter on "The Nostratic Homeland and the Dispersal of the Nostratic
>Languages". It shows it EXACTLY in the area and the time of the
>Zarzian mesolithic culture, I have been speaking of.
Unfortunately, I've managed to lose that book and I need to replace it.
However, those maps don't show things very well. I don't remember anything
in those maps indicating "Place pre-IE here". It's showing the spread of
**Nostratic**, not just IE, is it not? I also remember that IE itself
was not placed in Anatolia in those maps.
I could swear there was mention in the same book and breath of Johanna
Nichols and a possible origin of IE (or rather pre-IE) in Central Asia.
Did you skip the section on possible NWC loans in pre-IE and the list
of Circassian roots?
>Glen show me a human culture that has no language and I will agree
>that it is not necessarily so. Language is ALWAYS a part of
>culture.
John, you're still confusing the archaeological, ethnological and layman
definitions of "culture" all at once. In a combined study of linguistics
and archaeology, "language" **is** seperate from "culture" because the
two entities can and often do move in different ways over the same
geographical area over time. Ethnologically, language is a part of the
study of culture, yes. In layman's terms, a person may or may not
identify a language as a meaningful part of her or his culture.
Please straighten that all out and come back to me.
>Regarding your example of English in India and America, it was Englishmen,
>from England, all having the same 17th and 18th century culture that
>carried their language to both places!
It doesn't erase the fact that we have native Indians speaking English,
showing conclusively that language *does* spread differently over time
than culture (in both ethnological and archaeological terms).
>Bomhard also states Kerns with approval "I believe that the Mesolithic
>culture, with its Nostratic tongue, had its beginning in the fertile
>crescent just south of the Caucasas [...]
I don't recall Bomhard approving specifically of your trajectory of
pre-IE. I would read out of that that Bomhard rather is approving of
such a location for his _Eurasiatic_ but I can't recall what follows this
quote or in what context this was stated. All I do remember is that
his quote of Kerns' is quite long and it would be easy to misunderstand
what he approves of without reading the book in entirety.
However, again, look for mention of J.Nichols and Central Asia as well
as the unmissable list of Circassian roots. If Bomhard honestly felt
that IE came directly from Anatolia, I'm at a loss to comprehend why the
above things are mentioned.
- gLeN
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