Re[2]: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?

At 8:02:15 AM on Sunday, February 23, 2003, Glen Gordon
wrote:

> However, Miguel's claim of voicelessness in even initial
> position is really pushing the limit. Patrick has a point.
> I agree with him that voicing occurs BEFORE release of
> /d-/, even if it is just before.

For some speakers it does; for others it does not.

> Voicing is overall still *the* (yes, *the*) important
> quality that seperates /t/ and /d/ for most English
> speakers.

Then how do you explain the empirical observation that
untrained English speakers commonly hear unaspirated [t-] as
/d/?

Brian