From: Patrick C. Ryan
Message: 19186
Date: 2003-02-25
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Laryngeal theory as an unnatural
> On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:46:39 -0600, "Patrick C. Ryan"
> <proto-language@...> wrote:
<snip>
> You claimed, unless I misunderstood you, that in initial position
> there was voicing _before the beginning of closure_. That's what I
> referred to as pre-voicing.
[PCR]
In my dialect of English, voicing begins before closure.
> Jespersen merely states what I've said all along: English initial b-
> (or d-, or g-) starts out as an unvoiced unaspirated stop.
[PCR]
Wrong. A "stop" consists of both closure and release. If there is voicing before closure, during closure, or even after closure (after release), or all three, the stop is voiced.
>An ensuing
> vowel is fully voiced (unlike what's the case with initial p-, t-, k-,
> where the initial segment of the vowel or resonant is devoiced).
[PCR]
Wrong again. The initial segment of the vowel is not devoiced, rather aspiration is introduced between the release and vowel.
> Voicing starts around the time of release (immediately before or after
> it, accounts vary).
>
> >>>>I think your reference to Mandarin is probably a 'typo'. The system of stop contrasts in Mandarin is unaspirated vs. aspirated, both voiceless.
> >>>
> >>> The typo is called Hanyu Pinyin.
> >>
> >>[PCR]
> >>I am afraid this cryptic answer does not illuminate the question. Are you denying that the Mandarin stop contrasts are voiceless unaspirated vs. aspirated? Yes or no?
> >
> >No. But the standard transliteration (Hanyu Pinyin), uses <d> for the
> >unaspirated, and <t> for the aspirated phoneme.
> >
> >[PCR]
> >How one writes it is completely immaterial to this discussion.
>
> But not immaterial to the word "typo" :-).
[PCR]
I was trying to be kind. I could have said "ignorant".
Pat
PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE@... (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindgá meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr . . . a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn." (Hávamál 138)