Re: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:02:07 -0600, "Patrick C. Ryan"
<proto-language@...> wrote:

>Dear Miguel:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
>To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 12:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?
>
>
>> On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:43:05 +0000, "Glen Gordon"
>> <glengordon01@...> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Miguel:
>> >>You forgot to quote the sentence immediately preceding:
>> >>
>> >>"It is only in intervocalic position that the voiced stops are
>> >>fully voiced [...]
>> >
>> >It's irrelevant! The text's talking about /d/ in terms of "full
>> >voicing" or "partial voicing", not "absence of voicing".
>>
>> What part of that sentence do you not understand?
>>
>> Let me rephrase it: "The voiced stops are not fully voiced, unless in
>> intervocalic position (*)".
>>
>> >wasn't even talking about "pre-voicing" (??!).
>>
>> I thought at least Pat had made a comment about voice onset coming
>> before the closure in initial voiced stops.
>>
>> >A voiceless /d/ is one where the voice does not occur during the
>> >entire time it takes to implement the phoneme.
>>
>> And a voiced /d/ is one where the voice occurs during the entire time
>> it takes to implement the phoneme.
>
>[PCR]
> First off, what language has a "voiceless /d/" and how would it contrast with a "voiceless /t/"?
>
>Secondly, why is it justified to term a stop voiced only if "voice occurs during the entire time ..."? The linguists you are quoting make a careful distinction between "full" and "partial" voicing. Why is that not possible for you?

First off, "voiceless /d/" was Glen's phrasing, so you should really
ask him. For English, the term "devoiced /d/" or "partially devoiced
/d/" is more current. In any case, the International Phonetic
Alphabet has a symbol for "voiceless /d/" (d with ring under), and
some languages distinguish between such a voiceless /d./ and /t/ (e.g.
Icelandic).

Secondly, my sentence you quote was a parody of Glen's sentence
immediately preceding it. So that too is really a question for Glen.

>> (*) And the UCLA data show that even that's not entirely accurate for
>> many speakers of AE, who make all the appropriate gestures for voicing
>> the stop between voiced sounds, except for actually vibrating the
>> vocal chords.
>
>[PCR]
>Your "many" is awfully vague. How many speakers of America English actually do this?

Ladefoged on p. 50 of A Course In Phonetics says "most".

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...