Re: [tied] Re: Renfrew vs Mallory (Was "New Member)

The points you make George are well taken. You are correct that the extremes of sedentary farming or genuine nomadism are *never* present in actuality -- it almost becomes an example of Pres. Bush's "you are either with us or against us". Yet, when the sides are beginning to align (as they do for warfare), one needs to view the idealistic (the extremes) so that the argument can line up into either the yes or no camp. It's no different from a game of chess (even checkers). Someone must assume the role of "black" and the other selects "white" (or red). Then the "game" begins.

Comparing a Dereivka with a Pecheneg is no different from comparing New York City with Oxnard, Calif.

or Boston with San Jose, or Houston and Baltimore. Any comparisons, even those of agriculturalist vs. nomad will also be laden with individual prejudices. For a "citypoke" to select Houston over Baltimore is as ridiculous as selecting Oxnard over NYC. Yet, there are plenty of cowpokes who yearn for Houston and home on the Oxnard range.

Thus it's no different for Mallory and Renfrew. Both are searching for the Indo-Europeans, both recognize the importance of incorporating archaeology into linguistics study, yet the former has a far ranging background (from Los Angeles to Ireland) while the later has remained sedentary taking all his degrees at Cambridge and recently being knighted as Lord. In addition, Renfrew's drawings and maps are less clear.

Thank goodness Mallory grabbed the nomads.

Best wishes,

Gerry

----- Original Message -----

From: george knysh

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 9:15 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Renfrew vs Mallory (Was "New Member)******GK: Note however that one can't really speak of either firmly ensconced sedentary farming or genuine nomadism in these very early time frames. One deals with relatively mobile populations the basis of whose economy is either agriculture + animal herding or animal herding + agriculture (toss in the equally mobile hunters/gatherers of the north). The groups which Mallory (and others) associates with the spread of IE were not "classical" nomads like the later Scythians or Sarmatians. Just compare the archaeological evidence of settlements like Dereivka or Mykhajlivka, or Usatove with the "empty" steppes of Pecheneg or Polovtsian (Cuman) times to see the difference. International trade networks exposed all populations to various "new" things, and one can't really argue that e.g. the LBK groups were significantly less touched by this than Serednyj Stih or Yamna. I further suspect that the notion of peaceful agricultural spread over Europe suggested by Renfrew is just as mythical as the earlier story of club wielding horse-riding golden haired conquistadors. The "peaceful cowpokes" moving in from the south into areas inhabited by "indians" didn't win their lands by merry songs. And they were eventually stopped, by "indians" who adopted some of their ways, or developed defense technologies strong enough to withstand them.=== Some of these issues have been discussed extensively before. Take a look at the cybalist archives.******* __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com
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