Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
>> in my dictionary "i" from "radico" is a long /i/, so we should
>> expoected a "rizica" not a "ridica"
>
> Well, we'd expect rãzica. Radicar, erradicar in Spanish are cultisms
> (as opposed to inherited arraigar). In Romanian probably too.
I have to check if this a cultism or not. So sad the other romanians
here doesnt give their opinoin. I know for sure there are the old forms
"a ardica" and "a aridica".Inetresting to see in paralelism with the
verb of unknown etymology " a aburca"= "to go upside".
> Pedestre in Spanish is a cultism (borrowing from Latin). It's
> probably in Romanian too.
in romanian the big part of old army was allways made by "pedestrime"=
infanterie. And this is atested in XVI already.
>>>
>>>> catella > cãtzea
>>>> ordire > urzi
>>>> tenere > tsine
>>>
>>> What's the problem?
>>
>> catella= long /e/, expected catea not catsea
>
> Isn't it from catilla?
catsea= bitch.Cf DEX= from "catella" which en fine , point semanticlay .
The rules will work for "little dog" which is "cãtsel" from "catelus"
with short "e".But catelus was in umbric too so far I remember.And the
diminuitvla form of "catsel"= cãtseluS" so is curios to have a diminutiv
from diminutiv since "catelus"= already diminutiv of dog.The diminuztiv
for cãtsea= "cãtseluSã"= little bitch.
>> tenere= e+nasal expected tine not tsine
>
> The infinitive is analogical after the present tense:
> ténet > tiéne > tzíne.
hmmm.. it isnt. There are subtantivs like country= "tsinut" which will
mean in the latin theory this is from a participium of "tsine". Has
tough the same form with "ts". It is hard to speak as romanian "tienut"
or "tiene". This sounds already " foreign" but theoreticaly your
derivation tenet > tiene > tzine is possible. Tugh very short time for
it. As the slavs came the process was alerady done. That is what is
weierd here. The slavs came pretty early and the process was "done".
That means that all this happened in the 200 years which is hard to
belive. Do not forget please the bulgarian substrate which is seen by
bulgarian linguists as a "thracian" one. And indeed there are word which
are just in romanian to find and present exactly such so called
"late-latin-transformation".
>> verb, adj. sg, adj. plural, conj. prez. ind., pers II sg.
>> netezi, neted, netezi, netezeSti
>> repezi, repede, repezi, repezi.
>>
>> It seems the stress is the one who makes everything .
>
> No.
could you explain why not the stres is the one who make the
palatalisation? I see as fallow:
neted= ok. If I want to make plural without palatalization there should
be a "netedi". di= strong, and "asks for accent", is will sound hard and
as the articulated form. Somehow must be made the difference between
articulated and unarticulated form. Or "zi" can be pronounced soft and
hard. "di" can be prononunced in romanian only hard, with accent on it.
So, why not?
>>> Latin *ky and *ty are a special case (as usually in Romance): they
>>> give tz in Romanian, except before stressed ó and ú, where they give
>>> /tS/ = <c> (picior, -ciune, etc.)
>>
>> you mean *titia>tsâtsâ ? I mean germanic zize vers rom tzâtzã , there
>> are two existing words and they are fonological quasi-identic and
>> semanticaly too.
>
> No, I mean words like puteum "pit", fortia "strength", pre:tium
> "price", rationem "reason", bracchium "arm", *facia "face" etc.
Well, they are included in other rules. "pit" is not a word in
romanians.
Fortsa= i+wovel from your 3 rules,
prets= i+wovel,
rationem= neologism ( ratsiune)
The word used by folk for rationem = rost which has some more senses as
just "rationem" and is supposed to come from latin "rostrum"=beak,
trompe, or a scene where the people spoked. No semantism in all the
romanian senses.
>
>> OK, let see some examples for ty, ky>"ts"
>> a) you will wonder but from all romanians words which begin with
>> "ts" there is _none_ which is supposed to come from
>> latin,
>
> We've just discussed tzine < tenet. Off the top of my head, there's
> tzarã < terra.
no. tzine doesnt fit. But terra has the short e you spoked about and no
nasal there.
This is a nice word this terra which has in romanian as fallow:
tsara= country,
tsarina= your piece of land,
tsãrânâ= dry earth as pulver,
tsãrm= shore of a country or sea,
tsãran= peasant
From these words are too derivates which make the family even bigger.
And cf DEX they are not all related to each other
but tsara <lat terra.
>
>> a bit strange for the two posibilities "ty" and "ky" which
>> should have give in romanian a "ts".
>
> The *ty and *ky I mean do not occur at the beginning of the word.
I will take my time for searching all the DEX for everything which has
inside a "ty" and "cy" and should come from latin and has in romanian a
"tsi". It will take time, but I guess in maximal 2 monthes I will reopen
this thread.
But I have a feeling I cann tell you what Weigand already said.
"It seems that in romanian the exceptions from the rules are already by
themselves a rule":-)
Thank you, it was a nice thread this one.
Alex.