Re: [tied]_Does_Koenraad_Elst_Meet_Hock´s_Challenge?

From: Juha Savolainen
Message: 17075
Date: 2002-12-09

Dear Miguel,

Many thanks for your illuminating comments. I will
first try to give my understanding of your comments
(so as to check whether I have understood them in the
way you meant) and then make some additional
questions.

First, it seems to me that you basically agree that
the study of isoglosses shared by Indo-European
languages that are each others neighbours
geographically (and presumably were close neighbours
in the past) can provide us valuable information about
the dispersal history of the Indo-European languages
and hence probably about their common �home� as well.
In itself, all this would be unsurprising: the study
of the distribution of �characters� in space and time
is always extremely valuable for all attempts to
reconstruct the history that has produced that very
pattern. So, I take it that you would accept
information about geographically shared isoglosses as
a pointer about the dispersal history.

Second, while you seem to accept the idea of using
shared isoglosses as a way to go forward, you do not
seem to be very impressed by the choice of these
purported isoglosses (whether by Hock or Elst): the
�isoglosses� suitable for arguing one�s case here
(either way) must not be mere convergencies.

Summing up, I take your comments as saying that �yes,
you can study the dispersal history by means of
isoglosses shared by geographical neighbours, but the
discussion cited by you (i.e. by JS) does not
accomplish much in this respect�� Did I get your
meaning right here?

I would also like to ask you about my other question.
Do you think that linguistic arguments are sufficient
to settle at least some debates about the (Proto)
Indo-European �home� and the dispersal history? If so,
what would be the most compelling arguments and the
most persuasive evidence in this respect, in your
opinion?

Before I go, I cite James Mallory, just to tempt
everyone to participate in the discussion� (This
citation comes from his �Uralics and Indo-Europeans:
Problems of Time and Space, in Christian Carpelan,
Asko Parpola and Petteri Koskikallio (eds.), Early
contacts between Uralic and Indo-European: Linguistic
and archaeological considerations. (M�moires de la
Soci�t� Finno-Ougrienne, 242.) Helsinki: Finno-Ugrian
Society, 2001)

Mallory sets five principles which are required of any
solution to the IE homeland problem for it to be at
least a plausible solution (explanation for less
obvious principles in commas)

(1) Temporal-spatial plausibility
(2) Exclusion principle (it is unlikely that the IE
homeland lay in a territory already occupied by a
non-IE language)
(3) Relationship principle (the IE homeland solution
must accommodate the inter-group relationships of the
IE family)
(4) Total distribution principle (the solution to the
IE home problem must explain all the languages
belonging to the IE family)
(5) Archaeological plausibility


Do you accept Mallory�s set of five principles? And if
you do, what would be your best guesstimate for the IE
homeland?

I know that I am tempting everybody to uncertain
waters, but as an amateur I would be grateful for an
opportunity to learn something from your comments
here�:)

Best regards and many thanks for all comments,

Juha Savolainen


--- Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:19:54 -0800 (PST), Juha
> Savolainen
> <juhavs@...> wrote:
>
> >Isoglosses, linguistic changes which are common to
> >several languages, indicate either that the change
> was
> >imparted by one language to its sisters, or that
> the
> >languages have jointly inherited it from a common
> >ancestor-language.
>
> Or that the languages have carried through the same
> change
> independently. If the change is a phonological one,
> the more common
> the development is cross-linguistically, the more
> likely it is to have
> been an independent change.
>
> >Within the IE family, we find
> >isoglosses in languages which take or took
> >geographically neighbouring positions, e.g. in a
> >straight Greece-to-India belt, the Greek, Armenian,
> >Iranian and some Indo-Aryan languages, we see the
> >shift s > h (e.g. Latin septem corresponding to
> Greek
> >hepta, Iranian hafta).
>
> The change also occurs in Brythonic Celtic. The
> development s- > h-
> is so common that it has little value as a marker of
> joint innovation.
>
> >In the same group, plus the
> >remaining Indo-Aryan languages, we see the
> "preterital
> >augment" (Greek e-phere, Sanskrit a-bharat,
> "he/she/it
> >carried"). Does this mean that the said languages
> >formed a single branch after the disintegration of
> PIE
> >unity for some time, before fragmenting into the
> >presently distinct languages?
>
> There are at least two possibilities:
>
> 1) The augment was present in PIE, and it was lost
> everywhere but in
> Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, Indo-Iranian. In this
> case the augment is
> not a shared innovation, and has no value for the
> purpose of this
> discussion.
>
> 2) The augment is a joint innovation of the above
> mentioned groups
> (plus perhaps Balto-Slavic, judging by a trace of
> the augment in the
> Slavic past tense of the verb "to be" b-e^). In
> that case, the
> development of the augment is a shared innovation,
> and it's certainly
> significant that teh groups having it are more or
> less contiguous.
>
> >No, for this group is itself divided by separate
> >developments which the member languages have in
> common
> >with non-member languages. Best known is the
> >kentum/satem divide: Greek belongs to the Kentum
> >group, along with Italic, Celtic, Germanic,
> Anatolian
> >and Tocharian, while Armenian and Indo-Iranian
> share
> >with Baltic and Slavic the Satem isogloss (as well
> as
> >the "ruki rule", changing s to sh after r, u, k,
> i).
>
> There is no Kentum group. The shared innovation is
> *k^ > s(h)ibilant.
> Languages that have this change can be grouped
> together as the Satem
> group (even though there is no guarantee that the
> change did not take
> place several times independently [Luwian a point in
> case]).
> Languages that do not have this change (the
> so-called Kentum group) do
> not necessarily have anything in common because of
> this.
>
> >Thus, the Kentum languages form a
> >continuous belt from Anatolia through southern to
> >western and northern Europe, and the Satem isogloss
> >likewise covers a continuous territory (only later
> >fragmented by the intrusion of Turkic) from central
> >Europe to India. To be sure, there are serious
> >exceptions here, e.g. there are Kentum languages
> far
> >removed from Europe, viz. Tocharian in Xinjiang and
> >proto-Bangani in the western Himalaya;
>
> There *are* no Kentum languages, so this is
> unremarkable.
>
> >and there is a
> >later satemizing tendency within the Kentum group,
> >viz. in the Romance languages (none of which
> >pronounces its word derived from Latin centum with
> a k
> >sound), Swedish and English (where wicca became
> >witch).
>
> And this has nothing to do with the Satem
> innovation. We *know* these
> are completely independent (and _conditioned_)
> palatalizations.
> Conditioned palatalizations (in the neighbourhood of
> front vowel or
> *y) are a dime a dozen: there is probably no
> language in the world
> that hasn't had them in its recent history, and they
> are completely
> worthless as a sign of common innovation. What
> makes the satem
> development rather more unique is the unconditioned
> nature of the
> change k^ > fricative.
>
> >Hock himself unwittingly gives at least one example
> >which doesn't easily admit of a different
> explanation:
> >"The same group of dialects [Germanic, Baltic,
> Slavic]
> >also has merged the genitive and ablative cases
> into a
> >single 'genitive' case. But within the group,
> Germanic
> >and Old Prussian agree on generalizing the old
> >genitive form (...) while Lithu-Latvian and Slavic
> >favor the old ablative". (p.14) Clearly, Old
> Prussian
> >and Lithu-Latvian lived in close proximity and
> >separate from Germanic and Slavic for centuries, as
> >dialects of proto-Baltic, else they wouldn't have
> >jointly developed into the Baltic group, distinct
> in
> >many lexical and grammatical features from its
> >neighbours. So, if the Baltic language bordering on
> >the Germanic territory happens to share the
> Germanic
> >form, while the languages bordering on Slavic
> happen
> >to share the Slavic form, we are clearly faced with
> an
> >areal effect and not a heirloom from PIE days.
>
> The position of Old Prussian (West Baltic) within
> the Baltic group is
> not necessarily as clear-cut as how it's described
> above. It is
> possible that West and East Baltic did not go
> through a Proto-Baltic
> stage but are independent descendants of
> Proto-Balto-Slavic.
> As to the genitive-ablative in the o-stems, it's
> also far from clear
> whether Old Prussian shares anything with Germanic.
> The Germanic
> genitive (Goth. -is, ON -s, OE -es, OS -es, -as, OHG
> -es) goes back to
> *-es(a) (PIE pronominal *-esyo) or *-as(a) (PIE
> pronominal/o-stem
> *-osyo). The East Baltic (Lith. -o, Latv. -a) and
> Slavic (-a) Gen.
> goes back to the PIE Ablative *-o:t (*-o:d). The
> Old Prussian gen. is
> -as (deiwas), which cannot go back to PIE *-os(y)o.
> If it's from
> *-os, the only parallel would be Hittite gen. -as,
> which is highly
> unlikely. The best solution is probably that Old
> Prussian -as comes
> from the ablative *-o:(t) > -a, with -s added after
> the genitives of
> the non o-stem nouns (which have *-(e)s everywhere
> in Balto-Slavic).
> If so, all the Balto-Slavic langauges share the
> replacement in the
> o-stems of the gen. by the abl., which I suppose
> counts as a shared
> innovation.
>
> >A second example mentioned by Hock may be the split
> >within the Anatolian group, with Luwian retaining a
> >distinction between velar and palatal but Hittite
> >merging the two, just like its Greek neighbour.
>
> The innovating language here appears to be Luwian:
> it
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