[tied] Re: OE *picga

--- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., "Richard Wordingham"

<richard.wordingham@...>

> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > > And note that the spotted, "besprenkelt" meaning is just one

the

> > > branches that the almighty Austronesian/AfroAsiatic/IE *p/bH-

r/l-

> > > word has sprouted
> > >
> > > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Opr.html
> > >
> > > namely "split, half" > "smash" > "pulverize, bespatter"
> > > "variegated"
> > >
> > > which means you can't contain *h1/w-epros to IE either, nor
> > *pork^os.
> > > Considering that Manansal's/my list contains less than 100

roots

> of
> > > coincidence, isn't it surprising how much mileage I can get out
> of
> > > it? Every time a central idea in IE comes up I can find a match
> for
> > > it on the list? Unless one wants to consider the alternative:
> there
> > > was contact?
> >
> > The p/bH-r/l- pattern matches a good many roots, as Piotr has
> already
> > pointed out. As an experiment, why not take every 50th root in
> > Pokorny and see what proportion of them you can match up with the
> > list.
> Wouldn't it make more sense to search among those roots that have
> what looks like plausible derivations of *p/bH-r/l- ? But talking

of

> which, I joined the Austronesian list and found on
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/austronesian/message/48
>
> which non-members can't read, therefore
>
> "
> *hipaR
> The striking parallel between (1) *hipaR "sibling-in-law" and (2)
> *hipaR "opposite side of a river" is a strong evidence that PMP
> society had moieties (*baliw). This also confirms what Blust

(1980 :

> 226) suggested in 1980 :
> "It thus seems likely that the dual divisions of Proto-Malayo-
> Polynesian society were at least traditionally, if not physically,
> associated with settlements on either side of a river." Blust

(1980 :

> 226)
> Blust (R.A)
> 1980 "Notes on Proto-Malayo-Polynesian phratry dualism ".BKI 136 :
> 215-247.
>
> (1) *hipaR "sibling-in-law (same-sex)" (Blust ACD)
>
> Tambunan Dusun tipAg WB, HB, ZH
> Labuk Kadazan ipag WB, ZH (m.s)
> Makiang ipag WB, ZH (m.s)
> Iban ipar SpSib, SibSp
> Palawan ipag WZ, BW (m.s), HZ, HB, ZH (w.s), BW (w.s)
> Lamboya ipa HZ, BW (w.s)
> Keo occidental ipa WZ, WBW, BW,
> Keo oriental ipa BW (m.s), WBW,
>
> (2) *hipaR "opposite side of a river" (Blust ACD)
>
> Mansaka dipag "other side, opposite side"
> Manobo dehipag "the opposite side of a canyon or valley"
> Tiruray difar "the other side, in the sense of the side facing the
> speaker"
> 'ifar "to cross over to the other side (as of a river or street)"
> se'ifar tamuk "to negotiate formally the terms of a brideprice"
> Mukah dipah "opposite bank of a river"
> Kayan (Baluy) dipah "opposite bank of a river"
> Kelabit dipar "opposite side"
> Uma Juman dipah "either of the sides of a river"
>
> Table 1 : reflexes of *hipaR in various regions
>
> Philippines *hipaR WZ, BW (m.s), HZ, BW (w.s) f -> f , m <-> f
> Bornéo *ipaR WB , ZH (m.s) m -> m
> Sumba *ipa HZ , BW (w.s) f -> f
> Flores *ipaR HZ , BW (w.s) , WZ , ZH (w.s) ? f -> f , m <-> f
> POC *ipa(R) HB , WB m <-> f
> "
>
> which reminded me of what Møller found
>
> "
> extended with -r-; relativity suffix (?)
> *!-b-r- Pre-
> IndoEuropean
> *op-r- Proto-
> IndoEuropean
> extended grade
> *o:pr- Proto-
> IndoEuropean
> o:fer "river bank, coast" Old English
> o:ver "river bank, coast" Low German
> oever "river bank, coast" Dutch
> uover "river bank, coast" Middle High
> German
> 2nd high tone form
> *!abár- Pre-
> IndoEuropean
> *p-r- Proto-
> IndoEuropean
> péran,
> pére:n "on the other side of" Greek
> pérathen "from the other side" Greek
> peráo: "take across the sea
> to be sold" Greek
> perai~os "being on
> the other side" Greek
> peraióo: "go, take across to
> the other bank, coast" Greek
> pa:rá- "the opposite
> bank, coast" Greek
> pa:ra n. "bank, coast" Avestan
> pa:ráyati "go, take across" Sanskrit
> fra-pa:rayeiti "takes across" Avestan
>
> *!-b-r- Semitic
> !abara "he crossed, passed over
> (namely a river)" Arabic
> !a:bar "cross (e.g. a river)" Hebrew
> ebe:ru inf. "cross (e.g. a river)" Assyrian
> !&ba:ra: "passing, ford" Hebrew
> *!ibr- Common

Semitic

> !íbrun "bank or side
> (of a river)" Arabic
> !èbær "the opposite side
> of a river (or sea)" Hebrew
> !ebrå: "the opposite side
> of a river (or sea)" Syrian
> ebru "the opposite side
> of a river (or sea)" Assyrian
> ebirtu "the opposite bank
> of a river" Assyrian
> !iBra:'a: "the opposite area" Hebrew
>
> Originally without doubt signifying only the bank of
> a river or coast of a strait where the other side
> is visible, therefore most frequently connected with
> "the one, the other, the opposite bank".
> TP:
> Which is what one would expect in Sundaland, with straits
> ever widening, forcing people to learn to sail.
> "
>
> (taken from
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Opr.html
>
> )
>
> etc, and more of the same stuff, look for yourself. And there's a
> suffix *-g in Russian 'bereg' etc.
>
>
> > Richard.
>
> Torsten

It annoyed me that there was such strong correlation in Austronesian
between "sibling-in-law (same sex)" and "the other side of the
river", but only cognates in IE for the latter. I searched therefore
for cognates for the former.

How about
PIE *deh2iwer- "brother-in-law" (husband's brother)
Skt devár-
Lit diveris
Lat levir

with "Mediterranean substrate" alternation d/l.

But even better: how about *bHra-ter "brother"?

Of course, "brother" means now a biological brother. But why then
does it have the binary comparison suffix *-ter? And note that this
would contrast /brother/ "of the phratry/moiety on the other side of
the river" with /sister/ "of the the phratry/moiety on this side of
the river" (because of *swe- "one's own").
Does it mean males moved to the other side of the river to marry?

Torsten