Re: [tied] Goths and OCS

Alex,

There are Romanian loans in Slavic languages, but it would be untypical of such a loan to diffuse into _all_ of Slavic at an early date (whereas Gothic loans typically show such a wide distribution); Romanian loans are generally found in South Slavic and the dialects of the Carpathian area (which took them from Vlach colonists), and belong to a much later period than *gard- > *gordU (borrowed before r-metathesis in Slavic), *kaisa:r- > *ce^sarjI (before the monophthongisation of *ai and the second palatalisation), etc. Remember that the Slavs had been in contact with the East Germani much earlier than they got anywhere near the Balkans. The geographical range of Slavic was still relatively compact then, which explains the ubiquity of Gothic loans. The standard view is therefore that words like *stIklo 'glass', *gotovU 'ready', *xlaibU 'bread, loaf', *kUnIng-

> *kUne~dzI 'dux', or morphological elements like *-arjI '-er' (Goth *-a:reis

[-a:ri:s]) were borrowed directly from East Germanic, and I see no evidence militating against this. On the other hand _some_ Germanic loans in Romanian may have come directly from Balkan Germanic, independently of any Slavic medium. It is also certain that the southern Slavs continued adopting Germanic loans while already in the Balkans (this stratum of borrowings is geographically more restricted and includes words like *bordy 'axe' or *smoky 'fig'). However, I have no idea why Stefanescu-Dragane$ti should regard a Slavic intermediary as improbable; au contraire, given the historical beckground, it is _extremely_ probable.

Incidentally, Goth. bo:ka:reis means 'a scribe, scholar' (exactly like OCS bukar'I), not 'to write' (while the meaning of Rom. bucher 'swot' is highly specialised), and the second letter of the Cyrillic alphabet was called <buky> in _Slavic_ (cf. Russian bukva 'letter'), ultimately from Germanic *bo:ko:.

Piotr

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From: alexmoeller@...

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 12:43 PM

Subject: [tied] Goths and OCS

the Lingvist V. St. Draganesti explains some romanian words trough gotic and not trough OCS. Let see them: rom bucher= gotic bokarei= to write teh explanation of the word "bucher" in romanian is that the word is a loan from OCS, where "buche" meant the name of the second letter in the "lsavic alphabet" ( the expresion belongs to Draganesti).The slavic word "buche" is a loanword from a german languagea ( which one??) rom a gati= gotic gatauian= to make, to prepare, from germanic "tauian" with the suffix for past "ga" In teh english poem from 1000 , "Beowulf" we find the word gatawe= ready for fighting.Draganesti considers this word was loaned by romanians and albanians dfrom goths and from romanians it was loaded by slavs gard= gotic gards, garda= house, garden .The salvic "gradu" is consideread to be a germanic loanword ( cf. S. Feist).Draganesti consider the slavic word gradu is a loan of slavs from romanians. iubit= gotic "liuba"= to love. In rom. in some words "l" dissapier like in latin lapore= rom iepure, liberta= rom. iertare Draganesti doe snot exclude the posibility of romaniain "iubi= to love beeing a evolution of latin libet= to please, to be pleased but he thinks it is a gothic loandword because the slavs got it too from a german language istetz= goticul listig= clever. OCS listi,listiti with the same meaning is considered by S. Feist to be a german word in slavic languages. lautar= gotic liutharies= singerRom . Lingusits thinks this is a greek word (lauto) or a turkisch word (lauta) but Draganesti means that is a gothic one. leac= gotic lekeis=physician) , in Irish = liaig.In OCS we have "leko" = remedy si "leciti"= to heal.Draganesti consider this is a gothic word borrowed by slavs from romanians. sticla= gotic sticls, in OCS = sticlo, cosndierat bs St. Feist to be a loan in slavic from gothic.For Draganesti appears to not be probably that the romanians got it from slavs after the slavs got it from goths. He means the romanians got it from goths ans the slavs got it from romanians. The forming of future tense with the auxiliary verb "a voi" ( english = will), which is different from all romance languages, is similar with the forming of future in the germanic languages and with the same auxiliary. Example: "allai thaiei wilenia gagudaba liban"= all those who will live devoutly ( The second epistole of Thimoty, Ch. III, par. 12) = in rom. toti aceia care vor trai cucernic. The coloquial future in romanian with " to have" ( a avea) another different patern from whta we have in the other romance languagess, is also found in gothic. Examples: "tharub wisan habait= there they have to be( rom acolo au sa fie) ( J. Wright ) Pretty interesting on how slavic are the slavic loans in romanians and if indeed these are directly gothic influences or not.