Re: [tied] Geats and Jutes

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 15880
Date: 2002-10-02

Whoever this Hugh Bibbs, BA, is
 
http://www.medievalhistory.net/page0003.htm
 
his linguistic speculation ignores all current scholarship and for that reason deserves to be ignored in turn. The Jutes were not called Jeats in Old English, for one thing. Bede Latinised their name as <iuti>/<iutae>, sixth-century Franko-Latin sources called them <eutii> or <eucii>, and in Old English itself they were called <e:otan> or <e:otas>, dialectally also <i:otas>, <i:utan> (with falling diphthongs like [e:&] [i:&] or [i:u], not with an initial [j]!). Jutland (in Denmark) was called Jótland in Old Icelandic as opposed to Gautland (in Sweden), with jó < *eu. All these names point to early Germanic *eut- with alternative strong or weak masculine endings, i.e. to the stem forms *eut-a-, *eut-o:n- (a common kind of variation in Germanic tribal names, cf. pl. Seaxe or Seaxan). The Frankish versions suggest the (Latinised) collective *eut-ija-, also to be expected. Our modern form <Jutes> comes from mediaeval Latin Iuti/Iutae, where the <i> came to be pronounced as a glide and was "hardened" in the French pronunciation of Latin.
 
Initial <g> (the normal modern transliteration of the yogh letter, which was simply the form of G in Old English and was also used in words like <god>, <Grendel> or <cyning>) was indeed palatalised before front vowels in Old English, so the actual pronunciation became [jæ:at] (< early OE [gjæut], from still earlier *gaut(az)). At this point the word became phonetically similar to <e:ot-> [i:&t], though not identical with it, and since the Jutes were only a historical memory by that time as founders of the Kentish dynasty, the names came to be misidentified occasionally by late Anglo-Saxon authors, or to be more precise the name <ge:atas> was sometimes used instead of <e:otas> for one of the groups that had colonised England (but never <e:otas> for the Swedish Gauts, to my knowledge!), thus e.g. in the Late West Saxon translation of Bede (but not in the original).
 
Piotr
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben McGarr
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:09 AM
Subject: [tied] Bring back the real Piotr!

  ... and when he comes back, I hope he gives the Gasiorowski
Definitive Statement as to this Bibbs Jute/Geat business.  Maybe I
have read too many Nineteenth Century books for my own good, but up
until now I'd always assumed that these Iotes Iutes chaps were one
and the same to them Beowulf folks, and had just moved around a bit. 
All on the same grounds as this invocation of the 'funny g', as in
the one the Gaelic speakers use now. 



William Butler Jutes  ;o)


Steve said;
<<<ge:atas> in Beowulf and Widsith>>
I have a note here that from an H. Bibbs: "The name Geats is actually zeats, and the yogh, "z", is pronounced "y" before fronting vowels, so the correct transcription would be Yeats, which is close enough to Jeats (Jutes) to be argued that they are one and the same." I'm as likely to believe H. Bibbs, whoever he is, at this point. So I don't find anything here you say more convincing.