Re: [tied] Re: Celery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Wordingham" <richard.wordingham@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:54 AM
Subject: [tied] Re: Celery



.
>
> I doubt about the presence of /ð/ in Dacian. Neither Russu,
nor
> Poghirc now Wald mention something about it. What examples
you have
> for it? The same stands for [þ].

[Moeller] The problem is, even if Dacian have had [þ]. the
greek or romans could not write it, they have had use the
letter they tought it will be "most appropiate" to what they
heard.


I can't find any decent list of Dacian vocabulary! Plausible
sources
of [ð] are PIE *dH, *g^H and *g^. The only way of identifying
it
would be a hesitation between <d> and <z>, but there is no
guarantee
that such hesitation would occur. Moreover, if Thracian
*dentu- is
derived from PIE g^en-, such hesitation might not enable us to
decide
between [ð] and [dz].

[Moeller]
Do not be angry:-) Where you will like to find it? I cann help
just with some antroponimes, the plant names, the toponimes
and hidronimes. But a lot of antroponimes I have no ideea
where to get them from in the original form. It seems there
are just 2 big people who did a "selection work" of thracian
and dacian names. And these are Tomschek and Decev.

The lack of [þ], which in Dacian would be from PIE *k^, if
adequately
demonstrated, makes Dacian [ð] from *g^H and *g^ unlikely.
Such a
lack would tell us nothing about whether the reflex of PIE *dH
was [d]
or [ð].

[Moeller]
we have no help here. If I will assume romanian substrate is
made from dacian words, I have to show first that so is this.
SO, I can help you with PIE *k' >ts or sh in Dacian , using
words from substrate, but it remains " if substrate of
romanian is dacian." And it seems there will be a lot of
reasons from people to say the rumanian substrate is not
dacian. Of, course, they will not be able to say from wich
language the substratum comme, but I must demonstrate them
what they cannot. mmm, hard thing, but there is an outway of
this too...

Thank you for the details. Perhaps I should code them up (for
the
sound change program at www.zompist.com ) to make sure I have
understood them. However, at present I am struggling with a
practice
run deriving French from Latin.

Richard.

[Moeller] I wonder if in french are too examples like in
romanian ( *gwisti>substrate_language *ge$ti>rom. desht which
is not latin digitus> rom. deget even if very alike..