Re: Dacian Dielina

In cybalist@..., alexmoeller@... wrote:

>> 1. séli:non is also Classical Greek, meaning 'parsley' (once A.
>> petroselinum, but renamed Petroselinum sativum).

Not Petroselinum crispum?

>> It is the source of the word for 'celery' (A. graveolens) in
>> English, French, German and Russian at least - probably the
>> source in most of Europe.

In Catalan & Spanish we have still descendents of Latin apium:
api and apio.

>> 4. Rom. tzelina < Gk. selinon requires an irregular derivation
>> tz < s. (Incidentally, is 'tz' the standard solution to writing
>> t çedilla in Latin + Latin-1?)

It's one possible transliteration (other one: 'ts') which has its'
popularity on Romanian net (but it's not recommended even there).

>> A shift of gender in a word like this has many precedents within
>> Romance.
>
> [Moeller] is not the same word here. celion is not romanian
> tzelina. For celion in romanian you have patrunjel how i said
> before.

In some European languages, words for celery and parsley are
related. For instance, Italian word for 'parsley' is prezzemolo,
coming from Greek petrosélinon (to be recognized in scientifical
name of the plant) which is a composite pétra + sélinon "stone
celery", while the word for 'celery' is sedano < selinum (Lat.)
combined with Greek sélinon. Another one is the Hungarian word.

>> 5. Dacian 'dielina' would, I believe, have given *(d)zelina
>> in Romanian. So in this case, the derivation would require
>> irregular devoicing and a change in meaning.
>
> [Moeller] why irregular? Irregular from what?

As any normal English reader would realize, a Dacian 'dielina'
would have evolved not in 'Telina' but in *dzelina > *zelina.
The fact is Romanian word _is_ /Telina/ => irregular derivation.

>> It would be interesting to know what the words for 'celery'
>> and 'parsley' are in Albanian, Bulgarian and Hungarian. It's
>> conceivable that the unetymological spelling with 'c' in
>> French 'céleri' has modified another language's pronunciation,
>> and that this change has been passed on to Romanian.
>
> [Moeller] I am very curious too..

I couldn't find Albanian word for 'parsley', I'll have to check
this evening my dictionary. But here are the others (plus Serbo-
Croatian):

English parsley celery
Bulgarian magdanoz celina (voiced /Telina/), kereviz
Hungarian petrezselyem zeller
Serbo-Croatian perSun celer (voiced /Teler/)
Albanian ... (t.b.c.) selino

As it looks from here, a Bulgarian intermediate would fit probably
better as guess. French céleri has not influenced Balkan words for
celery.

Regards,
Marius Iacomi