Re: Genetic Papers on IE

From: x99lynx@...
Message: 15410
Date: 2002-09-12

"chingdude56" <chingdude56@...> wrote (Thu Sep 12, 2002  6:15 am)
<<maybe i am unclear on my understanding of the various hypotheses regarding
indoeuropean expansion, but i think the data supports a significant role for
the location north of the black sea in its dispersal."The 49a,f Haplotype 11
is a New Marker of the EU19 Lineage that Traces Migrations from Northern
Regions of the Black Sea" Giuseppe Passarin, et al (Abstract)>>

Yeah, there are several problem with connecting this particular allele with
IE. A basic one is that distribution does not match up with anything but
eastern IE languages (if that, see the Hungarian study by Passarino, below.)

But as to this paper specifically, the early dating of the allele is the more
obvious problem, indicated in the abstract by the statement: "...the
distribution of which suggests that the (Eu19/49a,f Ht11) emerged in Ukraine,
probably in a Palaeolithic population. Thereafter, the spread of this lineage
toward Europe, Asia, and India occurred at different waves over a few
thousands years. At present this seems to indicate the influence of the
Ukraine Palaeolithic groups in the gene pool of modern populations."

In "A synopsis of the entire European Y-chromosome biallelic haplotype
spectrum. G. Passarino, et al" -- sorry no pub cited here in my notes --
Passarino's thematic is outlined pretty clearly:

"The haplotype data almost completely describe the entire underlining
framework of NRY genetic diverstiy in Europe. Three components appear to have
been present in Europe probably since the Paleolithic era: (M173/49af Ht15
and M170 in Western Europe; M173/49af Ht 11/M17 in Eastern Europe).

Another [later] haplotype, 12f28Kb/M172, represents the contribution of the
demic diffusion of Neolithic farmers coming from the Near East after the
invention of agriculture..."

The spread of the "Ukrainian allele" (49af Ht 11) has been interpreted in
terms of paleolithic archaeological cultures substantially prior to the end
of the Ice Age. For a better explanation see
http://grokhovs1.chat.ru/legacy.html.

The problem with correlating (49af Ht 11) with language is evident in the
following abstract, where (49af Ht 11) was found to have its highest
occurrence in Europe among Hungarians:

Y-CHROMOSOME MARKERS IN HUNGARIANS
G. Passarino, O. Semino, et al...
"...The (12f2-8kb) allele and the (49a,f-haplotype (Ht) 15), which are
respectively supposed to be the Neolithic and Palaeolithic components of the
European population, represented only 2% and 7% respectively of the sample.
In contrast, (49a,f-Ht 11) accounted for 40% of Hungarians, a frequency which
is the highest yet observed.
As to the other Y polymorphisms, 9% of Hungarians were YAP+, 45% 27H39-B and
70% CAII-Ht a5- bl. Although the last marker has a value which is typical of
the Western European populations, its preferential association (58%) with
(49a,f Ht 11) clearly distinguishes Hungarians from Western Europeans, where
CAII-Ht a5-bl is associated with 49a,f Ht 15...."
http://www.cowan.edu.au/pa/hgsa/conpos12.htm#markers

The fact that there is a higher concentration of the "Ukraine allele"
(49a,f-Ht 11) among Uralic speakers in Hungary than in eastern European IE
speakers -- and a much, much higher rate than in western European speakers --
suggests even more so that the correlation between IE origins and that allele
is not workable.

Regards,
Steve Long