Re: [tied] Toponymy and ethnic Realities [...]

--- In cybalist@..., "m_iacomi" <m_iacomi@...> wrote:

> george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> > > Toponymy and ethnic Realities at the Lower Danube
> [...]
> > ******GK: In my view, these "ruined cities" were not located
> > along the Dnister, but on the Lower Dnipro (as indicated in
> > other manuscripts of DAI cited in the Jenkins apparatus). The
> > whole area was known as the "Bi(e)loberezhya" (the "white
> > shore") in the time of Constantine VII and Svyatoslav.
>
> Hmmm. "Isteon, oti enqen tou DanastrewV potamou proV to
> apoblepon merosthn [...]". It still looks like Dnister,
> not like Dniepr. Are you suggesting that Constantine was
> plainly wrong writing down "DanastrewV" for the other river?

&&&&&&******: What I am suggesting is that the manuscript evidence
for Dnister is ambiguous, and that other manuscripts
have "DanaprewV". What you should do is consult the Moravcsik-Jenkins
edition in the apparatus, where you will find the variant in
question. We have similar mixups between "Dnister"
and "Dnipro/Dnieper" in manuscripts of the Rus' Primary Chronicle. I
prefer the "Dnipr" reading in DAI for a number of reasons.******

> From the text one can infer only that the city of Aspron
> had white stores, not the shore itself. The argument with
> "Bi(e)loberezhya" looks doubtful since having a white city
> on a white shore is not so striking,

******GK%%%%: As explained below, the "white shore" meant not colour
but location, here the right bank of the Lower Dnipro, towards the
west.******

the emphasis should lie

> on the shore, not on the city as in Constantine's text. OTOH,
> Cetatea Alba/Bielgorod Dnestrovskij has had always a striking
> effect on first-time viewers by its' white appearance.

******%%%%%%GK: I doubt very much the appearance had anything to do
with the original name. Note that as to Bilhorod Dnistrovs'kyj, there
is good evidence that at one point there were two fortresses in the
area, a "white" one and a "black" one. Here the colours refer to
geography, "white" indicating "west" (quite proper for a right bank
location) and "black" east. When Moldavians and Turks built up
Bilhorod, they may well have given it that "white" appearance you
mention. I don't think this was the case in the 10th century. There
were other "Bilhorods" in Slavic territories (and the Kyivan one was
also called thus because of location, not colour per se).*******

>
> > They were in fact the remnants of the cities of Scythia
> > (later also known as the "Ulch grads" since they were
> > controlled by the Ulch Huns in the 5th-6th cs.) Brezeanu's
> > article may have interesting contributions as to other
> > things, but I believe that he is off the mark entirely with
> > respect to the geographical issue.******
>
> So what city would you propose for Constantine's Aspron?!

*****GK;%%%%% If it's a question of a "ruined" city on the Lower
Dnipro, my guess is that it might have been the same one that Ptolemy
called "Metropolis", the first Scythian city on the Dnipro to the
east of Olbia. *******

>
> Regards,
> Marius Iacomi