Re: [tied] just verifying a point

----- Original Message -----
From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] just verifying a point



----- Original Message -----
From: alexmoeller@...
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] just verifying a point



> The problem with Esbenus , Outasbios, Aut-esbios is that we
do not have a clue what they mean.

What makes you so cautious, all of a sudden? Do you mean that,
by contrast, you know for sure what Eppo means? (By the way,
please tell me where I can find Eppo attested as a Thracian
name.)

[Moeller]
It is in a thraco-illirian region. Why should belive it is a
celtic one?The panonians where a mixture of thracian and
illirian and very less celts. So, I repeat your question by
this way. Why should I belive is a celtic one and not a
thracian one?I know for celtic there is Epona so it is very
natural to be an Eppa thracian , specialy when i have the
reflex kW>p(b)

[Piotr]
We have no Thracian dictionary and we can only make
intelligent guesses as to the interpretation of onomastic
elements. <esb-> recurs in Thracian personal names like <asp->
in Iranian ones, and since the Thracians, like the Iranians,
had a reputation as horsemen, the equivalence of both elements
makes a lot of sense, especially since other sound
correspondences show that *w > b ([v]?) (as in Thr. bria <
*wrijo-) and that Thracian was a Satem language (as in diza <
*dHig^H-o-).

[Moeller]
As Mr Vinereanu observes, Kw>b(p) and gW>b allways except when
fallowed by -i- and -e-.We assume in thracian Kw >p(b) is not
thrue and this reflex is not to find. In this case how can you
explain that Esbenos come from *ekwos? If there is not this
reflex kW>p(b) where from you will have this "b" here?As a
matter of fact, in romanian language there is this rulle
always: kW>p(b) except when fallowed by -e- and -i-. I posted
there a message with the thracian characteristics for the
people who want to take a look.


> The position of "s" before the labial makes the things more
complicated. Pokorny rebuild the PIE-radical without "s" and
he gives the labiovelare as palatal for explaining the forms
from the satem languages (skt. asva, av. aspa, old lit. aSva,
eSva) where the siflantes could come frome a palatal labial,
and the short wovel "u"
became labio-dental "v" or labial "p". In this case the
thracian antroponims cannot be explained from this radical.
[Piotr]
What did Pokorny rebuild, and what things get "more
complicated"? Have you got any idea what you're talking about?
What did the fricatives come from? "A palatal labial"?? Do you
know the meaning of the words you're using? The reconstruction
*ek^wos has been in use since the nineteenth century and
nobody since that time has reconstructed the PIE 'horse' word
with anything else than *-k^w-. How does it follow that
Thracian <esba-> cannot derive from *ek^wos?

[Moeller]
I guess I was not clear. I dont mean Esbenus does not comme
from *ekwos. I just say we dont know what esbenus meant. And
here the people make the same failure as once Duridanov
takeing "inteligent guesses" for assuming something and
working with it. Mr. Vinereanu works just with elements he
knows what they mean for avoiding any misunderstanding. You
cannot assume that the unknow meaning of Esbenos must be the
same as the Iranian -asb just because they have been all
horsemen. That is too hasardous .
Assuming esbenos could be derivated from *ekwos we have a "s"
here and where from?The reflex kW>p(b) is there, we both agree
I think.What we dont know?We dont know what Esbenus means but
we suppose it and we try to find the root of an assumed word.
The difference here is , when I work with substratum is that I
know the meaning of the words for sure. So I am sure, I do not
make suppositions , but I work with real words. I told you
about naparca. I will tell you this is substratum and you will
ask where from I am sure this is not an "avar" or "gothic" or
cuman" one. And I have "Naparis".So, for Naparis I know for
sure is a dacian hydronim, naparca is in rumanian a living
word. I have the "apa" there in both words, I get once again
the confirmation kW<p(b)
I remember for satem languages kW>k and gW>g, so thracian did
not acted like this. So, why satem? We will need to take all
the examples of Decev and we will show where the good old one
was wrong.

> Thracian had no *kW> p rule? Why this? The example with
Esbenus & Co does not help because we do not know what this
mean and from which radical they comme

See above. As for *kW > p in Thracian, I don't know a single
example to support such a change. It would also be without
precedent in a Satem language.

[Moeller]
you got the example where kW>p(b), Even Esbenos will work
just for kW>b. The problem with mr. Vinereanu is just the
appearance of this "s" and therefore he assume that is not
from *ekWos specialy when you have in that region an Eppa and
you dont know what Esbenus means.

> So far I know Salapia is in Romania not in Italy.

Salapia (cf. modern Lake Salpi) was a costal town in Italy, on
the Gulf of Manfredonia. It's an area famous for its natural
salinas, so Salapia makes perfect sense as 'the place of salty
waters'. Where's the Romanian Salapia?

[Moeller]
Where Salapia was. That is the right question here. It was in
today Dobrogea. If you will like, I will ask for geographikal
coordinates.

> What does inspire you to say that the dacian words are based
on *ud?

Dacian and Thracian hydronyms like (Salmor-)ude, Uscu(dama) <
*ud-sko-, Oskios < *ud-sk-ijo-, Utus < *ud- with the Thracian
devoicing of *d, and last but not least Alb. ujë.

Piotr

[Moeller]
I have no ideea how well you the rumanian language know and
how much about substratum. I do not think that the old name of
Odrysia, (Uscudama), toponym in this case and not hydronim is
a derivation from *ud. In rumanian "a usca" means "to dry"
and it is supposed to be from latin word "exsucare". From your
example I will think: What is there?thracian "uscu", latin
"exsucare" , rumanian "usca"., well boy, boy is that indeed
latin into romanian?.But is not our interess now in this
topic.
For Salmorude I dont know now if this is an hydronim or a
toponim, I will check about.

But some more points here:

As I said about P-celtic , you spoked about OIr. "ech". let us
see: Does OIr comme from a P-dialect? I am informed OIr comem
from an Q -dialect.
The sardic language has the refelxes of P-dialects and the
latin influence was more weaker . This is why so much similar
cases there with romanian.
The greek langauge, just teh dialects which are later coming
in greeks have kW> p and these are the dorian reflexes
Mr. Decev published betwenn the two WW in Linguistique
Balcanique about the kW<p(b) in thracian. Just for
information.

How I said, I will check for Salmorude tomorow.

regards

a. moeller