[tied] Re: Cimmerians

--- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> > wrote:
> > > AFAIK the Cimmerians disappear from history in the
> > > late 7th c. BC, and the last mention of this
> > people is
> > > made in connection with Lydian politics. I only
> > know
> > > three "royal" names associated with them, two of
> > which
> > > have clear Iranic affinities (SANDANKSHATRU (but
> > > SANDAN also has Thracian possibilities) and
> > TSUSHPA)
> > > while another (LYGDAMIS, -DUGDAM in Assyrian
> > > sources-)is uncertain to me (Herodotus mentions
> > two
> > > Greek personages called LYGDAMIS). The leading
> > > theories are that the Cimmerians were either
> > Iranic
> > > speakers or Thracian speakers.
> > (TORSTEN)So far three names to (possibly) back that
> up.
> > Further evidence?
>
> *****GK: What for? For someone who builds mountains
> worth of hypotheses on half words or single letters
> three names are plenty.===

Do I hear sarcasm here?

>But as a matter of fact,
> the argument is that, apart from toponyms derived
> directly from the appellative itself, Cimmerians have
> left no indication that they spoke (en masse, as a
> people) a language other than Iranic or Thracian.

That was complicated. What are those toponyms you're talking about?

>And
> such as were contributed by them in either language
> cannot be distinguished from the contributions of
> earlier and later Iranic (or Thracian) speakers. BTW
> Trubachov argues for the Thracian connection on the
> basis of a hydronym in the Crimea (Putalitsa near
> Hurzuf, which he compares to Balkanic Pautalia), of a
> hill (also in the Crimea) called Tsiutsiul, which he
> compares to Arumanian "tsutsul"= "height", and of an
> ancient Bosporan city called Malorossa, where "mal" is
> supposedly the same as Rumanian "shore" or Albanian
> "mal(i)" = "hill, mount". His first two wxamples seem
> interesting. The last one is problematic, since later
> Bosporan rulers had strong Thracian connections and
> could also have given cities Thracian names in that
> context.******

(Cf. Chrysostomos on Tauric salt-traders in Olbia.)

All very true. Furthermore, the Goths spoke an Eastern Germanic
language and the Godos spoke Proto-Spanish. Therefore they are
completely unrelated peoples.

> >
>Frankly I don't see how the
> > Cimmerians
> > > can be viewed as Celts or Germans.

I never suggested they were "Germans" (nor Germani). Why should I? A
good many scholars believe the Cimbri were Celts, the Cymry certainly
are, so why mix "Germans" into it?

> There is
> > nothing to
> > > substantiate this in the eastern materials.
> > (TORSTEN)Anything to disprove it?
>
> *****GK: Just the complete absence of Germanic or
> Celtic place names in areas associated with the
> Cimmerians which could be plausibly dated from the
> time of their dominance. And the archaeological
> remnants demonstrably attributable to Cimmerians have
> nothing in common with what is known of the Hallstatt
> culture******

Imagine that. So close together and absolutely no sign of mutual
influence.

See above for "Germans". As for Scythian times, if the Grimm shift
took place in the 1st century BCE, how would you identify a name
before that as Germanic?

> >
> > Torsten
> >
> >