Re: [tied] Re: Cimmerians

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> wrote:
> > AFAIK the Cimmerians disappear from history in the
> > late 7th c. BC, and the last mention of this
> people is
> > made in connection with Lydian politics. I only
> know
> > three "royal" names associated with them, two of
> which
> > have clear Iranic affinities (SANDANKSHATRU (but
> > SANDAN also has Thracian possibilities) and
> TSUSHPA)
> > while another (LYGDAMIS, -DUGDAM in Assyrian
> > sources-)is uncertain to me (Herodotus mentions
> two
> > Greek personages called LYGDAMIS). The leading
> > theories are that the Cimmerians were either
> Iranic
> > speakers or Thracian speakers.
> (TORSTEN)So far three names to (possibly) back that

up.

> Further evidence?

*****GK: What for? For someone who builds mountains
worth of hypotheses on half words or single letters
three names are plenty.=== But as a matter of fact,
the argument is that, apart from toponyms derived
directly from the appellative itself, Cimmerians have
left no indication that they spoke (en masse, as a
people)a language other than Iranic or Thracian. And
such as were contributed by them in either language
cannot be distinguished from the contributions of
earlier and later Iranic (or Thracian) speakers. BTW
Trubachov argues for the Thracian connection on the
basis of a hydronym in the Crimea (Putalitsa near
Hurzuf, which he compares to Balkanic Pautalia), of a
hill (also in the Crimea) called Tsiutsiul, which he
compares to Arumanian "tsutsul"= "height", and of an
ancient Bosporan city called Malorossa, where "mal" is
supposedly the same as Rumanian "shore" or Albanian
"mal(i)" = "hill, mount". His first two wxamples seem
interesting. The last one is problematic, since later
Bosporan rulers had strong Thracian connections and
could also have given cities Thracian names in that
context.******

>
> >Ukrainian and Russian
> > sources I have read suggest that (pace
> Herodotus)most
> > Cimmerians stayed behind and were assimilated by
> the
> > incoming Scythians, or blended in with the
> > pre-Scythian (and pre-Cimmerian) ethna.
>(TORSTEN) The Cimmerians held out in Tauris, on the

Cimmerian

> Bosporus, Kerch.

******GK: By the time of Herodotus, the Cimmerians
were just a memory. All that remained were a few
toponyms.******

>
>
> >(GK)I am exploring
> > the possibility that the famous Scythian
> Foundation
> > Legend may have had an earlier variant in which
> > Cimmerians played the same role as the subsequent
> > Royal Scythians (a late and dominant "younger
> > brother"). This has some support in the
> archaeology
> > but is as yet not ready for comprehensive
> > presentation.== Frankly I don't see how the
> Cimmerians
> > can be viewed as Celts or Germans. There is
> nothing to
> > substantiate this in the eastern materials.
> (TORSTEN)Anything to disprove it?

*****GK: Just the complete absence of Germanic or
Celtic place names in areas associated with the
Cimmerians which could be plausibly dated from the
time of their dominance. And the archaeological
remnants demonstrably attributable to Cimmerians have
nothing in common with what is known of the Hallstatt
culture******

>
> >(GK)I know of
> > nothing in the Hallstatt culture which would prove
> > that the Cimmerians of the East were a leading
> > component or indeed any kind of component here.
> >
> (TORSTEN)And to disprove it?

*****GK: One is not obligated to "disprove" hypotheses
advanced without a shred of evidence to back them up
other than by pointing out that the evidence does not
exist. We know some things about the Cimmerians in the
East. If none of those things appear in the West that
should be good enough.*******

>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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