Re: [tied] Re: Categorial collapse

----- Original Message -----
From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:17 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Categorial collapse

I'm thinking of something earlier than that. We know that the
Sciri
and Bastarnae whom Tacitus is not quite sure if he wants to
classify
as Germani were on their way to the Black Sea in Eastern
Europe
already in the 2nd century BCE. They must have had a language
similar
to that of Scandinavia at the time. Now if it is from the
Bastarnae
that the ethnically mixed crowd under "Odin"'s command took
their
language, they will have arrived in Scandinavia with a
creolized
language. If it were different enough from "Old Germanic" in
Scandinavia, we would have a similar situation to that in
Bulgaria,
or later in England. In other words, "categorial collapse";
when the
subjugated Scandinavians and North Germans learned the new
language
(as Snorri said they did), for some reason the inflections for
case
might have been too different, and voila, they make mistakes,
to this
very day, in North Germany (later "colonized" by High German),
and
total collapse of the case system in Scandinavia (this only
appears
later, since power & writing are still in the hands of the new
elite
for a long time). In South Germany, things are different,
since this
was the Hercynian Forest, thus new land. No large people to
assimilate.
This is only _my_ opinion!

Torsten

[Moeller]but I have a problem with Bastarnae. Jordanis doesnt
say a word about them and there are rumours the Bastarnae
werent at all germans but more likely they should have been
celts.I even ask myself why Jordanes did not say a word about
them. Normaly he should do, if they were germanic at all. He
tells us about a lot of folks , even abbout carpians but
nothing about bastarnae. (just a remarque here: if the goths
should have been indeed the getae how once on this list was
discuted, Jordanes shoud have had mentionated more about carps
too, showing somehow the relationship between goths and carps.
But he didnt.)
Anyway, the bastarnae lived a lot and long with the thracians,
fought with-and-against dacians; in the last time in the III
century AC they withdrawed themself on the Peuce-insel and
from that time in 2- or 3 cases as oft they were rememebered
in the history, they were known as "peucini".So, there is
questionable when did they went back in north, if they did it
at all?