Re: [tied] barba, farfeche, bãiat

From: Miguel Carrasquer
Message: 14633
Date: 2002-08-27

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:47:51 +0200, alexmoeller@... wrote:

>[Moeller] so in this case you suppose as fallow:
>- the germans made this word. The galloromanic got it from germans.( untill XV century
> we have the word attested in french)
>- the romanians got it from somewhere ( it doesnt matter right now where from)
>Untill here sounds OK to me too. But:
>-the senses in the old french was the same as in romanian: a short ax, a long ax for
>fighting developing in this time some expresions " Ho, cã nu am dat cu barda" " I didnt meant it so".
>- the german lost that word. In german is known just Hallebarde which is a new word.( composed, of course )
>These two points make me to think that is unlikely the whole supposition .

The fact that the Italians, French and Catalans say formaggio, fromage and
formatge doesn't make German, Dutch, Frisian and English Käse, kaas, tsiis and
cheese less borrowed from Latin ca:seus.

>The Vulgar Latin form was vetránu ~ betránu, with syncope of the unstressed
>second vowel in a three-syllable word, as is normal, and with hesitation between
>initial b- an v-, which is sporadic. In Romanian, we would expect *vãtrân, but
>we have bãtrân.
>[Moeller] in this case we have to assume the word was already in the latin of II centuries in use and even with sincope.
>1)Are you aware of regions where inscriptions with "vetranu or betranu" where found and from which centuries?

The loss of a penultimate short (and therefore unstressed) vowel in Latin is
attested from the beginnings of the imperial period (in some cases even earlier:
domnus for dominus, virdis for viridis, valde: for valide: are attested already
in the Republican era).

>2) Why should have had latin in the II century the word "veteranus " with the second syllable as unstressed?
>I mean, in every language from today ( where we have the reloaned word) the "te" from "veteranus" is stressed,
>where the second "e" is strongly accented as first e. This will lead one to say even in the II century AC
>the word should have had a stress on the second "e"

I know of no language where re-borrowed vèterá:n(us) is stressed on the second
/e/ (Spa./Ita. veteráno, Cat. veterà, Port. veterão, Du. veteráán, Eng. /vétrn/,
etc.), except, obviously, Polish wetéran (and there only in the nom.).

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal