----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] barba, farfeche,
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:38:05 +0200, alexmoeller@...
>about barde:"Barda" in the
sense of axe is a Germanic coinage. AFAIK, it did not exist
>just in gallic
Continental Celtic, and neither is the same word in the sense of
attested in Continental Celtic. From Germanic it spread into
Slavic and Romance
(although Slavic brady ~ bradva suggests a Germanic source
*bardo:, instead of
attested barda, does anyone know any more
[Moeller] so in this case you suppose as
- the germans made this word. The
galloromanic got it from germans.( untill XV century we have the word attested
- the romanians got it from somewhere ( it doesnt
matter right now where from)
Untill here sounds OK to me too. But:
-the senses in the old french was the same as in
romanian: a short ax, a long ax for fighting developing in this time some
expresions " Ho, cã nu am dat cu barda" " I didnt meant it
- the german lost that word. In german is known
just Hallebarde which is a new word.( composed, of course )
These two points make me to think that is unlikely
the whole supposition . If I take a look in the dictionary I will
" Mittelhochdeutsch "helmbarte"= "Streitaxt
mit langem Stiel",von "Helm" = "Handhabe" & "Barte" = "Beil"
"die Barte" = "Beil, Streitaxt" Althochdeutsch "barta",
"verwandt mit "Bart"" "die Alten sahen in der Axt
die 'Bärtige'" "der Bart" =IE *bhar-dha-,Althochdeutsch "bart" and engl.
The Vulgar Latin form was vetránu ~
betránu, with syncope of the unstressed
second vowel in a three-syllable
word, as is normal, and with hesitation between
initial b- an v-, which is
sporadic. In Romanian, we would expect *vãtrân, but
[Moeller] in this
case we have to assume the word was already in the latin of II centuries in use
and even with sincope.
1)Are you aware of regions where inscriptions with
"vetranu or betranu" where found and from which centuries?
2) Why should have had latin in the II century
the word "veteranus " with the second syllable as unstressed? I mean, in
every language from today ( where we have the reloaned word) the "te"
from "veteranus" is stressed, where the second "e" is strongly accented as first
e. This will lead one to say even in the II century AC the word should have had
a stress on the second "e"