Re: I, Hercules [was: A "Germanic" query]

From: tgpedersen
Message: 13089
Date: 2002-04-08

--- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: anthonyappleyard
> > To: cybalist@...
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 3:38 PM
> > Subject: [tied] Re: I, Hercules [was: A "Germanic" query]
> >
> >
> > --- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > > And why these extra assumptions? Because we could then analyse
> > > Thoringia (Thuringia) as *þor-ing- etc. If we didn't, who were
> > > those people then -ing-'s, followers of, if not of þor?
> >
> > "th" in Roman Latin was pronounced as [t] + [h], not as the thorn
> > letter. In "Thuringi" the Romans heard an aspirated "t". An older
> > name for that tribe was "Hermanduri". "Thuringi" means "sons of
> > Duri", plus that the High German sound shift has started
> > [d] to [t].
> >
> > Note also Roman "Saltus Teutoburgensis", with thorn spelt as "t",
> if
> > this name means "people fort", and if |as is likely) the modern
> > German spelling "Teutoburgerwald" has been influenced via learned
> > routes from the Roman record.
> --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > The High German shift ca. AD 420?? I would think it's the later
> version Duringa that shows the regular shift of þ- > d-, and that
> <th> [þ] is original, not Latinate. The Hermunduri are attested so
> early that the <d> must be original as well, and it follows that
> names are not related. Thorsten's "Thorings" look good to me,
> of course I'd prefer to analyse the name as dissimilated *þunr-ing-.
> >
> > Piotr
> >
> *þunr-ing- is good also as a starting point for Tacitus' <Tungri>
> (around Tongern in Belgium) which he assures us is the proper name
> for those that Caesar met and called Germani, as the first. In
> words, the Turingi were the first Germani.
> But there are other *Tur- places: Torino (Celtic something-or-other
> Turinum, of a people with the old suffix -in-), Zuerich,
> ik-, and the French city Tours. Now who are they named for? Perhaps
> the *turs- people, whose name reappears, Dionysos of Halikanassos
> assures me, in Lat. <turris> "tower"?
> Or is it very early (Celtic?) occurence of *þo:r, who Snorri
> us spent some time in Thrace?
> As for <teuto-> as Germanic, what happened to Verner? This looks
> Celtic to me. Plus an Armenius, whose name is derived from an
> unetymogizable <ermin>? Was Germania only truly Germanicized after
> Arminius' "reconquista"?
> Torsten

Reading E. Benveniste: Indo-European Language and Society, London
1973 it dawned on me that <ermin> is definitely not unetymologizable.

Old Persian <Aryaman>
Modern Persian <e:rma:n> "guest"
Ossetic <ilman> "friend"

But now I learn that <armen> is also a personal name in Armenian.

Surfing on the net for Thuringian migration time history I discover
that around 0 CE it was invaded and settled by the Hermunduri (The
Ermun-dur-i in Tor-ing-ia, get it? Know what I mean (nudge-nudge,