Re: The "Lesser Goths" of Jordanes

--- In cybalist@..., x99lynx@... wrote:

> "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
> <<I can't seem to find your "cow herders" in Jordanes... On the

contrary

> Jordanes describes an almost French situation.>>
>
> On the contrary, Ulfila's Goths are specifically mentioned in

Jordanes (or

> what we've been given of him.)
>
> And, nope, nothing "la-tee-da" about it. Actually, it's all just

about as

> "prestigious" as cow pastures and bumpkins who don't even know

where wine

> comes from.
>
> Book LI (267): "There were other Goths also, called the Lesser, a

[great?]

> people whose priest and primate was Vulfila, who is said to have

taught them

> to write. And to-day they are in Moesia, inhabiting the Nicopolitan

region as

> far as the base of Mount Haemus. They are a numerous people, but

poor and

> unwarlike, rich in nothing save flocks of various kinds and pasture-

lands for

> cattle and forests for wood. Their country is not fruitful in wheat

and other

> sorts of grain. Certain of them do not know that vineyards exist

elsewhere,

> and they buy their wine from neighboring countries. But most of

them drink

> milk." (from the Mierow web version)
>
> (BTW, the "great people" translation looks out of place and a bit

like

> someone trying to put a positive spin on this rather inauspicious

appraisal

> of those Goths from whom we mainly obtained Gothic. One might more
> consistently read "populus immensus" as meaning either numerous or

occupying

> a large area.)
>
> And also, one might, once again, see this segment as Jordanes

trying to

> distance himself from the old neigborhood and simple folk that may

have once

> been home.
>
> Here's the Latin text I have:
> ("erant si quidem et alii Gothi, qui dicuntur minores, populus

inmensus, cum

> suo pontifice ipsoque primate Vulfila, qui eis dicitur et litteras
> instituisse. hodieque sunt in Moesia regionem incolentes

Nicopolitanam ad

> pedes Emimonti gens multa, sed paupera et inbellis nihilque

habundans nisi

> armenta diversi generis pecorum et pascua silvaque lignarum; parum

tritici

> citerarumque specierum terras fecundas. vineas vero nec, si sunt

alibi, certi

> eorum cognoscent ex vicina loca sibi vinum negotiantes; nam lacte

aluntur

> plerique.")
>
> Steve

Yes, true. But as far I can tell, your "reappraisal" of Jordanes'
account is based what on nothing else than what you would wish to be
the case. You offer no proof or even circumstantial evidence other
than that you think it must have been so.
And BTW your essentialist interpretation of the success of languages
as depending on "their" will to borrow is rather outdated these days.

Torsten