Re: The Scythian Brothers

--- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: tgpedersen
> > To: cybalist@...
> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:16 PM
> > Subject: [tied] Re: The Scythian Brothers
> >
> >
> > > 1 : kronprins
> > 2 : arveprins
> > 3-> : (prins)
> > > Torsten
> >
> >
> > An interesting idea, and the semantic development of Germanic

*arb-

> < *orbH- into 'heir', 'inheritance' provides at least a nice
> typological parallel for the Scythian case. So (1) is "royal
> charisma", (2) is "hereditary right" (assuming that "arpo-"

reflects

> *arba- < *orbH-o-) and (3) is ... well, whatever. In fact, the

eldest

> brother does not seem to need any special virtues, being senior by
> default -- which is precisely what makes him a loser in the end :)
> >
> > Piotr
>
> I will have you know that I am the oldest of three brothers.

Hrmph! :)

> Now that's at least one thing I'm an expert of, and I can assure

you

> all that Herodotus' description of their roles is accurate. The

first

> is the heir by definition, the next the hard worker, and then along
> comes prince Charming and steals the show.
>
> The whole structure of the tale reminds one of Andersen's "Klods-
> Hans" (I don't know its name in English) or Cinderella. The two

first

> siblings may have the rules on their side, but they don't have true
> xwarena, exactly because they are bound by the rules. And (note:

I'm

> only doing comparative IE mythology here!) the structure may be
> described as: High, Just-as-high, Third (tri-ta-?). I believe the
> Armenians have a three-brothers story too.
>
> I'll restate my case, for clarity:
>
> 1 : *?Leib-prinz, first-born, the crown prince, the formal

heir

> 2 : Erb-prinz , second-born, the heir-on-stand-by,

substitute

> 3+ : prince charming, with no obligations, but with xwarena
>
> Of course, there ain't no such thing as a ?*Leib-prinz in German.
> German <leib> is "body; midriff section", ultimately related to
> <Leben> "life". But Duden has, among other things,
> Leib-arzt personal physician to the sovereign
> Leib-garde, -wache personal guard to the the sovereign
> Leib-eigen serf
> Isn't it as if as the implicit object of these "professions" there

is

> a sovereign, so that this might have been another sense of <leib>
> once?
>
> As for the second, Erb-prinz, consider that he has to stand in for
> the first-born prince, his brother, after that one becomes the
> sovereign, in case of illness and travels abroad, and ultimately,

in

> cases where the sovereign dies early (as they often did then)

leaving

> behind under-age sons, the Erb-prinz will have to act as a

temporary

> regent and guardian. Which points to the third strange sense

derived

> from *orbH- : German <Arbeit> "villeinage" > "work" (cf. <rabota>):
> he is doing work for the sovereign.
>
> In Denmark in 1947 king Christan X died, leaving behind two sons:
> kronprins Frederik, who became king Frederik 9, and arveprins Knud.
> Until the new Grundlov, constitution of 1953, which instituted the
> right also for princesses to inherit the kingdom, people were

worried

> that Knud was only a hearbeat away from becoming king, since they
> believed, probably more mythologically than fairly, that he was not
> too bright.
>
> Torsten

Something to follow up:
Gothic <arm-s>, German <arm> "poor" are derived from *orbH- too.
Now suppose we divide it this way:
(The) Leipoxais gets the immobile property (obsol.Da <liggendefæ>)
(The) Arpoxais gets the mobile property (Icel. <gangandifé>),
which includes the army (host) and all those younger brothers who
have to emigrate (in Copenhagen people say of the police (all from
Jutland: "Hvad fóregår hér", high tone on stressed syllable) that
they are the younger brothers that didn't get the farm).

Further:
In German <Leib> has the additional sense (beside "body") of "rump,
torso". Therefore perhaps we might add ModE <arm> to the derivatives
from *orbHo- (the contrast immobile/mobile again), and consider Lat.
<arma> "weapons", originally "equipment", again "mobile property"?
Galster ("Guldhornenes tale") conjectures a connection between the
-leben names of Thuringia , -lev/löv names of Denmark and Scania, and
German <Leib-geding> "pension", ie. <leip-> is something you live
off. A <life> is therefore what you have when you have property to
live off (which someone has <left> to you).

So, that oughta settle that.

Torsten