Re: [tied] Scythians, Zoroastrians, etc.

>The linguistic affinity of the
>second "Nomad" aristocracy, that of the Catiari or
>Cotieri is yet to be determined. Perhaps they were
>Indic

> Indic? In what way were they Indic?

*****GK: Perhaps in the same way as the Sinds and
Maeotians further east. I must confess that my
"probably" was rather loose here. "Possibly" would be
better.******

I didn't mean to challenge you. I was just wondering what aspects of
their language or culture makes them likely to be Indic? Where were
the Maeotians located?

> What we have is a combination of historical reports, linguistic

data and archeology that adds up to quite a lot of evidence, even if
some of it is indirect.

>

I'm not questioning the standard theory, I just want to separate in
my mind the known facts from the suppositions based on them.

>There are philological grounds for locating the dialect of the

younger Avesta in eastern Iran ca. 1200-1000.<

Is this based on the dating of the Vedas plus the requirement that
they be around the same time period due to their linguistic
similarity? I'm familiar with most of the arguements for dating the
Vedas: horses, chariots, IVC, etc? Is there other evidence related to
dating Avestan?

>We know from Assyrian sources that the Medes and the Persians had

arrived near Lake Urmia in northwestern Iran by the 9th c. BC.<

Is much known about them before this?

>. "Pontic Indo-Aryans" sounds like a contradiction in terms, but it

should be construed as "speakers of a non-Iranian language closely
related to Indo-Aryan, living in the Pontic region

>

Are these Pontic IAs based only on the theory that the Urheimat was
there?

> Judging from the linguistic affinities of Median, the Medes

occupied a northwesterly position within non-Pontic Iranian at an
early date, while Old Persian, with its highly unusual phonological
features (including possible eastern Saka connections), seems to have
been an intrusive dialect, perhaps originating on the northeastern
periphery of "Irania", in Bactria or thereabouts.

>

What affinities of Median?

So it seems that Persian went east from the Pontic to Bactria and
then back west to meet the Assyrians?

> Even before Iranian-speaking peoples began to move west, we have

evidence of contacts between Hurrian and an Indo-Aryan-type language
in the middle of the second millennium BC.

>

Is this Hittite or something else?

>It seems that the Iranian subbranch (defined by a characteristic set

of common innovations) expanded at the expense of residual "non-
Iranian Indo-Iranian" (para-Indo-Aryan) languages, replacing them
gradually in Central Asia as well as the Pontic region. The only
survivals were the Old Indo-Aryan dialects that found refuge in India

>

Was this wiping the plate clean during the later historical
expansions of the Scythians, etc. or something much earlier?

> >> The homeland of Zarathustra, and of Gathic (Gatha/Yasna Avestan,

but not of the younger Avestan texts), was probably NW Afghanistan.

>

Is this based only on Witzel?

> > Do the younger texts show a different homeland?
>
> There are several dialectal layers in the Avesta. Zarathustra's own

dialect was apparently a NW variety of Old Avestan, with some Median
influences

>

Where would this put him? To the NW of NW Afghanistan? What is this
based on?

>while the younger texts, composed in a related but different dialect,

contain internal evidence (place-names, etc.) connecting them with
eastern Iran.

>

What is this evidence?

Can you recommend any good books on this subject? I can see that
Mallory's cursory treatment isn't going to be enough. I guess I'll
order Richard Fry's "Heritage of Central Asia" since it's the only
thing affordable and available. Any other suggestions? What about
books that deal with the relations between Mesopotamia and C Asia?
Some say Mesopotamia had great influence, other like Jarrige claim
indigenity (new word for me!)