From: tgpedersen
Message: 12428
Date: 2002-02-22
>I place the "expulsion" before their exploits outside Scandinavia.
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > > But we have
> > > > the testimony of
> > > > Jordanes about the Eruli being driven from
> > > > Scandinavia.
> > >
> > > *****GK: This is one of those obscure and
> > ambiguous
> > > passages in Jordanes from which no firm
> > conclusions
> > > can be drawn. He simply says that the Danes
> > "Heruleos
> > > propriis sedibus expulerunt". But he doesn't say
> > > exactly when, and he doesn't say "expelled from
> > > Scandinavia" (i.e. they could have moved to
> > another
> > > location in Scandinavia). This could in fact apply
> > to
> > > those Eruli who had recently settled in
> > Scandinavia
> > > after their trek north (cf. Procopius: the time
> > frame
> > > is shortly after 512 AD. The Danes are unknown
> > prior
> > > to the 6th century.) There has been extensive
> > > discussion of this issue on the Gothic and
> > Germanic
> > > lists.******
> > >
> > >
> > It is of course possible that the incident took
> > place on Madagascar
> > to where both peoples had emigrated, and from where,
> > after the Danes
> > had expule'd the Herulei they went their separate
> > ways.
>
> ******GK: Comments like that merely demonstrate for
> the umpteenth time the (shall we say diplomatically)
> oddity of your thinking. Try to be more responsible.
> You said "DRIVEN FROM SCANDINAVIA". Now to any normal
> reader of English this means that they left the area.
> But there is nothing in Jordanes which proves that the
> Eruli he speaks of were in fact pushed OUT of
> SCANDINAVIA. Both Dani and Eruli could have occupied
> particular areas IN Scandinavia and what happened was
> simply a reshuffle WITHIN Scandinavia. Many scenarios
> are possible. But I must repeat in the strongest
> possible terms. There is no way that Jordanes can be
> used to PROVE one's favourite solution here. Nor can
> he be used to disprove it. What is practically certain
> is that the clash occurred IN Scandinavia. But the
> Heruli's later fate cannot be determined from Jordanes
> alone. Jordanes is not PROBATIVE beyond the mere fact
> that both Dani and Heruli were in Scandinavia at some
> point in time.******
>
> But using
> > Occam, and with no evidence that the Dani migrated
> > anywhere after
> > this event, the safest bet is to assume that it
> > happened where the
> > Dani live now, ie. in Denmark.
> >
> > The problem is with the interpretation of <proprius>
> > "own".
> > Whose "own"? Did the Danes expel the Heruli from the
> > Heruli's own
> > settlements (thus being invaders or colonizers from
> > somewhere else,
> > eg. Sweden) or did the Danes (as I read in a
> > fanciful book by Viggo
> > Starcke) expel the Heruli from the Danes' own
> > settlements (the
> > Heruli, thus, should be assumed to have improperly
> > taken those from
> > the Danes some time before)?
> >
> > There is a third solution to the "own" problem.
> > Suppose both peoples
> > lived in the same settlements and that the Danes
> > drove them out for
> > some reason? The Heruli are known to have been both
> > a class (when in
> > Denmark) and a people (when in Europe). The
> > spectacle of a people
> > driving out a learned class or people would not be a
> > unique one in
> > history.
> >
> > I propose this scenario:
> >
> > 1) approx 50 BCE - 0
> >
> > Someone arrives from the south in Denmark and later
> > in the rest of
> > Scandinavia (Albrectsen's conclusion based on the
> > sudden introduction
> > of inhumation graves, see earlier postings).
> >
> > 2) approx 190 CE
> > The last "free Scandinavians" in western Norway
> > launch an attack on
> > the invaders but are repulsed (Illerup Aadal, approx
> > 15000 weapon-
> > related items sacrificed in bog (see
> > http://www.illerup.dk) and
> > related sites, this is no incursion, this is war)
> >
> > 3) approx 400 CE?
> > As the Roman empire is weakened, so are the Germanic
> > tribes that prey
> > on them. A new attack, and the original invaders
> > (now known as
> > Heruli) are expelled. In the general mayhem under
> > the occupation, all
> > tribes known before to Greek and Roman authors
> > (except possibly the
> > Cimbri) have disappeared and the people is now known
> > under the name
> > of another tribe of the original invaders: Dani.
> >
> > 4) approx 50-100 years later?
> > The Heruli return from Europe and are given free
> > passage through
> > Denmark to Sweden, where they settle.
> >
> > Dates subject to negotiation, of course!
> >
> > Torsten
> >