[tied] Re: "Odin of Asgard"

--- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- tgpedersen@... wrote:
> (GK) In the 1rst c. BC there is no room here
> > for
> > > your "Odin" as discussed by Snorri. The Sarmatian
> > > complexes in this area didn't give a hoot about
> > the
> > > Romans,
> > (TP)How do complexes give hoots about anything?
>
> ****GK: Pablum for Torsten: "complex"= political
> organization. "give a hoot"= colloquial expression for
> "care". They weren't afraid of them and did not
> consider them a threat.******
>
> (TP)Or,
> > attempting
> > a translation: I assume that there are two kinds of
> > evidence
> > here: chronicles and archaeology. As for the first,
> > Snorri
> > says it happened,
>
> *****GK: No kidding?(:=)))*****
>
>
> (TP)Jordanes says something similar,
>
> ******GK: Like what exactly?******

XI (67) Then when Buruista was King of the Goths, Dicineus came to
Gothia at the time when Sulla ruled the Romans. Buruista received
Dicineus and gave him almost royal power. It was by his advice the
Goths ravaged the lands of the Germans, which the Franks now possess.
(68) Then came Caesar, the first of all the Romans to assume imperial
power and to subdue almost the whole world, who conquered all
kingdoms and even seized islands lying beyond our world, reposing in
the bosom of Ocean. He made tributary to the Romans those that knew
not the Roman name even by hearsay, and yet was unable to prevail
against the Goths, despite his frequent attempts.

That the Goths ravaged Germania at Caesar's time. And I'm wondering
whether that Dicineus (Strabo: Decaeneus) wasn't "Odin".

> >
> (TP)Appianus
> > (look it up in the postings here in cybalist)
>
> *****GK: Don't need to Torsten. I've got the
> original.***
>
> (TP)says
> > Mithridates
> > sought to make the locals at the Don interested in a
> > waging a
> > campaign against the Romans through Moesia, when he
> > made his
> > tour around the Black Sea to attack Pommpey from the
> > rear.
>
> *****GK: And? And nothing.

??
As I've said several times, what I'm proposing is the
following: Let's assume for the sake of argument that
what Snorri and Jordanes are saying is true, and then
see where this takes us. Is it possible to (re)construct
a (hi)story including these two sources which doesn't
contain contradictions? But of course if you proclaim
a priori that Snorri's account necessarily contains
nothing but falsehoods, then we don't have much to
discuss.

>Or maybe you could try
> making Mithradates into "Odin"? How about this:
> Mithradates realized he couldn't beat the Romans, so
> he had somebody impersonate him, that somebody was the
> one killed and disposed of as "Mithradates" while the
> real Mithradates became "Odin" and marched northwards
> to his glorious destiny. Since he was a polyglot he
> also knew Bastarnian Germanic which proved useful
> there.(:=)))))))***********

Do you find it easier to argue against other peoples'
theories if you make them up yourself?

>
> > (TP)As for the second, according to the written
> sources "Odin"
> > never had actual contact with the Romans; he fled
> > (or whatever)
> > out of foresight.
>
> *****GK: Some warrior...(:=)))) Everybody else stayed
> put. They weren't afraid of the Romans and they were
> quite right not to be.*****

??
As I recall, Pontus ended up as a Roman colony? I'd've
worried in their situation.

> >
> > >(GK) and weren't significantly affected by their
> > > pressure (unlike the rulers of the Bosporan
> > > kingdom).[NB. In the Crimea it's the Romans who
> > built
> > > "defensive forts" against the Scythians] And there
> > was
> > > no Attila-like "barbarian" political configuration
> > > here either: Bastarnae, Yazigi, Scythians,
> > Roxolani,
> > > Aorsi, Siraci, Alani== all went their separate
> > ways.
> > > No "Odin" like ruler over them.
>
> >(Torsten): Based on aerchaeology?
>
> ****GK: No Torsten. Based on what we know of the
> history of the area from chronicles and inscriptions
> much closer to the Augustan age than the Icelandic
> Pompeius Trogus fantasizing twelve hundred years
> later.******

Inscriptions, George? Proclaiming that they had no common ruler?
And why resort to name-calling w.r.t Snorri?

> >
> > > That's why your theory
> > > is (not seems) like sand flowing through one's
> > > fingers. Not because of some additional
> > > "assumption".****
> > > >
> > > > (Torsten)BTW how do you make combined rivers?
> > AFAIK
> > > <kvisl>
> > > > is
> > > > a "branching", nor a "branch".
> > >
> > > *****GK: Probably in the same way in which you
> > make
> > > the Sea of Azov a continuation of the Don. Or
> > combine
> > > the Baltic, the North sea, the Atlantic and the
> > > Mediterranean into one "Varangian Sea". Or come up
> > > with Herodotus' configuration of Scythia etc etc
> > etc.
> > > Old geographers could be very "creative".******
> >
> > (TP)Well, it seems to me you are being the creative
> one
> > here ;-).
> > Making up a confusion and then blaming it on the old
> > geographers
> > hardly counts.
>
> *****GK: I didn't make up the confusion Torsten. Some
> old geographers really did confuse the Don and the
> Volga.

Some of Snorri's contemporaries confused the Don and
the Volga, therefore Snorri confused the Don and the Volga?.
Honestly, I don't understand your type of logic.

>As I said, it doesn't really matter. "Odin"
> remains a will o' the wisp.*****
> >

Is that ex cathedra?

Torsten