Re: [tied] Old Rus' of the many "nationes"

+ADwAIQ-DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC +ACI--//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN+ACIAPg- HTML+AD4APA-HEAD META HTTP-EQUIV+AD0AIg-Content-Type+ACI- CONTENT+AD0AIg-text/html+ADs- charset+AD0-utf-7+ACIAPg- TITLEMessage/TITLE META content+AD0AIg-MSHTML 6.00.2600.0+ACI- name+AD0-GENERATOR+AD4APA-/HEAD BODY DIV+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Tahoma size+AD0-2-----Original Message-----BR+AD4APA-BFrom:/B george knysh +AFs-mailto:gknysh+AEA-yahoo.com+AF0- BR+AD4APA-BSent:/B Tuesday, November 20, 2001 4:26 AMBR+AD4APA-BTo:/B cybalist+AEA-yahoogroups.comBR+AD4APA-BSubject:/B Re: +AFs-tied+AF0- Old Rus' of the many +ACI-nationes+ACIAPA-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-/FONT+AD4APA-TT+AD4AKgAqACoAKgAq-GK: An additional complication here is the factBRthat while in the south, Slavic groups and ethna (IBRuse the term +ACI-nationes+ACI- in my writings for entitiesBRsuch as the Sivera/Siverjany et sim. +AFsAIg-nations of theBRmediaeval type+ACIAXQ- were relatively cohesive as toBRcontact and contiguity in rural areas (the steppeBRpopulations were largely a border phenomenon)furtherBRnorth there were certainly large and as yetBRunintegrated groups of Balts and Ugro-Finns livingBRamongst the (not always) majority Slavic population.BRWhile this left little trace in the extant writtenBRliterature such as it was, the influence on dailyBRspeech would have been more pronounced.BR+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4AWw-Sergejus Tarasovas+AF0AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-/TT+AD4APA-/DIV DIV+AD4APA-TT+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001Agree. The question is since what time the consequences of this influence let us state Old Ukrainian, Old Belarusian and Old Russian have alredy emerged, replacing earlier dialectal bunches./SPAN+AD4APA-/TT+AD4APA-/DIV DIV+AD4APA-TT+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/SPAN+AD4APA-BR+AD4AKgAqACoAKgAq-GK: I'm not sure which is correct. I suspect,BRhowever, that +ACI-national+ACI- (in the mediaevalBRsense)consciousness in these groups was to a veryBRlarge degree independent of language (an excellentBRexample is 12th c. Suzdalia), and I would be moreBRinclined to favour solutions which emphasize diversityBRover unity, esp. at the level of colloquial everydayBRspeech.+ACoAKgAqACoAPA-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4AWw-Sergejus Tarasovas+AF0AJg-nbsp+ADs-Yes, that's why my doubts+ACY-nbsp+ADs-concerned not ethnpolitical, but+ACY-nbsp+ADs-rather +AF8-linguistic+AF8- reality of Old Ukrainian etc +AF8-languages+AF8- at the time in question.BR+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-BR+AD4AKgAqACoAKg-GK Whatever the linguists have to say on this, itBRis clear to me as a historian that these +ACI-nationes+ACIAPA-BRhad political affinities different than the groupingsBRenumerated above, and I feel certain that these mustBRhave had an increasing influence on their speech.Thus:BRthe Dregovichi (especially their northern areas) beganBRto integrate with the Western Krivichi (also known asBRthe Polochane) rather early (and particularly afterBRthe rule of the Iziaslavichi began in Polotsk: thisBRbranch did not even share in the making of the +ACI-Rus'kaBRPravda+ACI-). The Eastern Kryvychi were activelyBRcolonizing Meryaland after 1058.BR+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4AWw-Sergejus Tarasovas+AF0AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-/TT+AD4APA-/DIV DIV+AD4APA-TT+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001Agree, see above.BR+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-/TT+AD4APA-/DIV DIV+AD4APA-TT+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADs-There is one group ofBRKryvychi which was dominant in the Pskov area. IBRremember that this dialect shared some features withBRWest Slavic (the only thing that comes to mind at theBRmoment is that +ACI-milk+ACI- here was +ACI-mleko+ACI- as in PolandBRrather than the full-voiced +ACI-moloko+ACI-).BR+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4AWw-Sergejus Tarasovas+AF0AJg-nbsp+ADs- Despite that Zaliznyak, being +ACM-1+ACY-nbsp+ADs-researcher of the Krivichian, has+ACY-nbsp+ADs-emphasized some Krivichian-West Slavic connections, the evidence he provides in his works+ACY-nbsp+ADs-doesn't demonstrate anything especially West Baltic. As for that specific exmple,+ACY-nbsp+ADs-Krivichian indeed seems to avoid /l/-velarisation, pertinent to the Standard East Slavic (aka Old Russian) and reflexes Slavic +ACo-CelC as +ACoETA-l+BEw- or +ACo-el+BEw- (instead of SES +ACo-olo), the feature that+ACY-nbsp+ADs-I can hardly classify as+ACY-nbsp+ADs-characteristically West Slavic. Since graphemes +AHsENQB9- and +AHsETAB9- are mutually interchangable in early birch bark inscriptions, +AHsEPAQ7BDUEOgQ+AH0- could be an+ACY-nbsp+ADs-occasinalism instead of+ACY-nbsp+ADsAewQ8BEwEOwRMBDoEPgB9-. I'll check that later, but at any rate the Krivichians+ACY-nbsp+ADs-formed an obviously separate +AF8-linguistic+AF8- unit.BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN I think I haveBRsolved the issue of the +ACI-Ulichi+ACI- and +ACI-Tivertsi+ACI- (wroteBRa special article about this in 1997).BRThe +ACI-Polany+ACIAWw-anBRartificial literary name for the Central +ACI-natio+ACI- ofBROld Rus' concocted in the 11th c.+AF0-were politicallyBRvery close to the Derevlany since the time of YaropolkBRSviatoslavych (+-978).BR+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4AWw-Sergejus Tarasovas+AF0AJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-BR+AD4APA-/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2Very interesting (both +ACI-Ulichi+ACI- and +ACI-Tivertsi+ACI- and especially +ACI-Pol'ane's+ACI- artificiality - never heard of that).BR+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-BR+AD4AKgAqACoAKg-GK: Certainly not according to the linguisticBRgroupings mentioned above. But politically there wereBR+AD4AIg-nationes+ACI- which became the nuclei of the laterBRnations.BR+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4AWw-Sergejus Tarasovas+AF0AJg-nbsp+ADs-Agree, but see above+ACY-nbsp+ADs- :)/FONT+AD4APA-/SPAN+AD4APA-/TT+AD4APA-/DIV DIV+AD4APA-TT+AD4APA-SPAN class+AD0-282480112-20112001+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4APA-BRSergei/FONT+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/SPAN+AD4APA-/TT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4APA-/BODY+AD4APA-/HTML