Re: [tied] Re: Interpreting some Scythian names

----- Original Message -----

From: george knysh

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 11:22 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Interpreting some Scythian names

*****GK: There are in fact many such figurative
extensions, incl. "slender body", "swordblade",
"lightning", "woman" and not just "thong of a whip"
but "whip" itself. Presumably this indicates that we
need not only refer to the principal meanings when
wondering about a term.*****

 

Sure, but you must realise that the more semantic leeway, the weaker etymology you get. You can combine the various meanings in any which way, getting "superior sword-blades",  "foreign women", "distant lightnings" or what not. With a little imagination you could even find a historical justification for any single one of them.

*****GK: I take your point. At least it does in
Sanskrit apparently. There is also "Katara", but that
usually means "lecher" or "coward" hardly a proper
name for a ruling Scythian group... Unless it could
mean exactly the reverse. Like "para" which can mean
either "best" or "worst". So not "lechers" but
"self-controlled", and not "cowards" but "heroes".
This is really reaching. Are there other words in
Sanskrit whose sounds can convey exactly opposite
meanings?*****

 

Homophones that are accidental antonyms? I suppose it can happen. But as regards <para-> meaning 'first' or 'last', etc., it's analogous to a half-empty bottle being half-full at the same time. Not real antonymy, just a matter of interpreting the original meaning 'most distant, extreme' in various ways.

*****GK: In the lexicon "tara"=conquering, surpassing,
excelling; "ras"= roar; and "pa"= guarding,
protecting, ruling. TARARASPA results. The noise of
the Lower Dnipro falls (there were many) is well
documented in literature. I believe that the first
mention of this is in Constantine Porphyrogenitus. But
I could well have come up with an artificial
construct. And here also Chris' reminder of Dumezil
was most helpful. The issue of the Scythian language
is far from resolved. But the probability that the
later comers were of Iranic speech is very high (the
word "ksaj" =king [like in Kshayarsha=Xerxes) in the
names of the sons of Targitaus of the SFL.*****

 

This agglutination of syllables is not an etymology. There are almost infinite combinatorial possibilities if you start decomposing longer words into monosyllables, and *tara-raspa- isn't even a convincing approximation of <traspies>. If it's any comfort, I don't regard Dumézil's etymology as fully compelling either, though <-aspie-> < *ek^w-yo- (= Skt. as'vya-) looks really tempting.

*****GK: ... And the
Sanskrit grammar re KHATA was also no concern
particularly since I was not looking to show that
Scythian was Sanskrit. If the root pointed to "dig"
"plough" that was good enough for a starting
hypothesis. And not because of folk etymology but
because of the relationship visible to the
"land-tilling" Scythians, still remembered by Pliny as
"Aratores".*****

 

Roots are never "good enough" without morphological analysis. "Root equations" are what amateurs are fond of, since detailed analysis is too difficult and too boring :). But <kHa:ta-> is NOT a root. It is <kHa:-> (the preconsonantal zero grade corresponding to <kHani->, where <a:> derives from a sylabic nasal plus a laryngeal) with the participle ending <-ta->. This is Indo-European, not just Saskrit grammar (<-ta-> = *-to-); you simply can't escape it. I am afraid that any etymology invented to prove a point but ignoring formal difficultes qualifies as "folk". If it isn't quite naive, let's call it "scholarly folk etymology".

 

As a matter of fact, I do have a few suggestions concerning some of these Scythian names, but I'd like to do a little research before I post them.

 

Piotr