Re: [tied] Nostradamus and Dumezil

--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:

> Some comments are in order.
>
> ON jörmun- is not a "snake" word but a prefix meaning "immense".

For example, <jörmun-grund> (a well-known compound) means "the wide
world". Since <gandr> is an ON word for "hostile beast, monster",
<jörmun-gandr> means "huge monster".

>

Thank you for the clarification. In my database I have ON ormr, OE
wyrm, and OHG wurm translated as 'snake, serpent, dragon'. Perhaps I
was amiss assuming that Jormun was a variation of this ON word.

Perhaps also the Avestan Gandarewa means 'monster'? In Persian myth
he 'eats away at creation'. This recalls, I think, the Norse Nidhog
serpent who continually eats the third root of the world tree in
Niflheim. The Nidhog serpent is basically a variation of
Jormungander.

> Slavic *e~ga (> West Slavic *je~dza, note the _nasal_ vowel) comes

from the onomatopoeic root *(e)ng- 'moan, whine'. The original
meaning (preserved in Old Church Slavic!) was "illness, ailment",
hence names of pain-causing demons, and finally the modern
meaning "witch, spiteful woman". The Iranian connections you suggest
are absolutely impossible from the formal point of view (including
Lada/Leto, etc.).

If the characters of the Iranian Jeh/Jahi wasn't so close to the
Slavic ones, I would doubt the connection too. Lada/Leto I threw out
knowing that it would be shot down, though.

Your guess about Jezebel is completely fanciful (like nearly
all "etymologies" based on superficial similarity), as 'Iyezebel is a
name with a perfectly good Semitic etymology.

>
> Piotr
>
>

Actually, it wasn't my guess, though I forget where I read it. I
don't know why Jezebel's perfectly good Semitic etymology is such an
insurmountable problem. Is it not possible they found a similar-
sounding word in their langauge and used that for the name of an
adopted demon?

PS: The Bielbog and Chernobog struggle, IMO, also reflects the
struggle between Ormazd and Ahriman. There is even a creation myth
between them that recalls elements of the Zoroastrian version. It is
a struggle between the forces of light/summer and darkness/winter. It
is played out in many IE myths, such as Balder and Hodur in Norse
myth, and various Celtic gods. The Norse and Slavic annual struggles
are on the solstices, but for some reason the Celts have their on
Beltane and Samhain.

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cas111jd@...
> To: cybalist@...
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 7:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Nostradamus and Dumezil
>
>
> From what I've read, I see strong similarities in Hinduism which is
> not surprising. However, the similiarities with the Norse mythology
> is particularly striking. Also, from what I have read on Slavic
> mythology, there are also strong parallels. Some of this may be
> attributed to later influences going north via the Sarmatians et

al.

> However, I believe that if I could find more, I would see stronger
> ties with Iran. Some myths we may be able to relate to Sumeria and
> Babylonia, though I can't think of any off hand (been a while since

I

> read that).
>
> There are also some name similarities between Iran and the Norse

and

> Slavs that are not all easily explained other than for a very

ancient

> common religion, IMO. A couple odd ones I'll mention here are
> the 'world serpent' Norse Jormungander that is found, in addition

to

> Azi Dahaka, as Gander. Jormun means 'snake' or 'serpent', as I
> recall, but I always wondered where they got "gander." The Persian
> demoness Jeh or Jahi is found in Slavic myth as Baba Yaga in Russia
> and as Jezi Baba to the Czechs and Jedza to the Poles, with her
> minions known as the Jezinky. I believe that Jeh/Jahi was the demon
> of the abyss who recieves the souls of the damned before passing

them

> off to the other demons down there. She equates to the Norse's Hel.
> She was also adopted by the Hebrews as Jezebel.
>
> I suspect that perhaps the Hebrew 'world serpent' Yamm was also
> adopted from Azi Dahaka. In Zoroastrian religion, the evil god
> Ahriman seems on the one hand to have made Azi Dahaka, but also to

by

> synonymous with him. Basically, it seems that the Hebrew name for

him

> suggests he was the 'evil twin' of god and synonymous with Satan.

As

> you know, the Norse Ymir, Persian Yima, and Hindu Yama are all
> derived from a root meaning 'twin', and that Ahriman and Ormazd

were

> also twins.
>
> In Zoroastrian religion, Ahriman and Ormazd are depicted as a black
> snake and white snake biting an egg. This is the primordial egg

that

> seems to represent Spihr and/or Zurvan, the primordial creator god.
> These eggs are often seen as a disc or orb and also associated with
> gods such as Mithra. They don't have rays such as we would expect
> with a sun-god, but they do often have wings.
>
> This is the weird part: the Greek caduseus is a black and white

snake

> winding around a staff with a winged disc at the top. I believe

this

> is the motif as expressed in Zoroastrianism, with the staff and
> winged disc being Spihr, which is basically a version of the 'world
> tree' or 'north pole' with the primordial world egg at the top.
>
> The caduseus was an attribute of Apollo before be gave it to his

son

> Asclepius. I used to wonder how Apollo was depicted as a serpent on
> Delos, or even how he slew the Python at Delphi considering he was

in

> no way a thunder-god. Now I know. Delphi was the center of the

world

> in Greek tradition. Ormazd defeated Ahriman in the center of the
> world before casting him into the abyss. Apollo continued this same
> myth in Greece. Even his birthplace on Delos makes sense: the
> heavenly paradise located in the center of the world, where is
> located in Persian myth the 'world mountain' as is found on Delos.

In

> Russian myth the goddess Lada equates to the Greeks' Leto. There

also

> the god Rod and goddess Ros equal Apollo and Artemis. In Norse myth
> they are Frey and Freya. In Welsh myth they are Don and Don. In
> Persian myth they are Yima and Yimak. In Hindu myth they are Yama

and

> Yamana (or something like that). I believe that Anahita was
> originally Ormazda's sister before Zarathustra changed things

around.

>
> This theme is played out so many times its not funny. In Greece we
> also have the Dioscuri and their sister Helen. One of the Dioscuri
> dies but is later redeemed in heaven, as the souls of the damned

are

> destined to be at the end of time in Zoroastrianism. In Roman myth

we

> have the twins Romulus and Remus (no sister, though). Remus dies.
> Mithra, who was basically an aspect of Zurvan, had two attendants -
> one held a torch up (immortal good son) and the other held his down
> (evil dying twin).
>
> Personally, I see strong Persian and Slavic mythological themes in
> the Gundestrap cauldron, too, though Chris Gwinn believes in the
> Irish Cattle Raid of Culaigne theory.