Re: [tied] Nostradamus and Dumezil

Some comments are in order.

ON jörmun- is not a "snake" word but a prefix meaning "immense". For example, <jörmun-grund> (a well-known compound) means "the wide world". Since <gandr> is an ON word for "hostile beast, monster", <jörmun-gandr> means "huge monster".

Slavic *e~ga (> West Slavic *je~dza, note the _nasal_ vowel) comes from the onomatopoeic root *(e)ng- 'moan, whine'. The original meaning (preserved in Old Church Slavic!) was "illness, ailment", hence names of pain-causing demons, and finally the modern meaning "witch, spiteful woman". The Iranian connections you suggest are absolutely impossible from the formal point of view (including Lada/Leto, etc.). Your guess about Jezebel is completely fanciful (like nearly all "etymologies" based on superficial similarity), as 'Iyezebel is a name with a perfectly good Semitic etymology.

Piotr

----- Original Message -----
From: cas111jd@...

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 7:40 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Nostradamus and Dumezil

From what I've read, I see strong similarities in Hinduism which is not surprising. However, the similiarities with the Norse mythology is particularly striking. Also, from what I have read on Slavic mythology, there are also strong parallels. Some of this may be attributed to later influences going north via the Sarmatians et al. However, I believe that if I could find more, I would see stronger ties with Iran. Some myths we may be able to relate to Sumeria and Babylonia, though I can't think of any off hand (been a while since I read that). There are also some name similarities between Iran and the Norse and Slavs that are not all easily explained other than for a very ancient common religion, IMO. A couple odd ones I'll mention here are the 'world serpent' Norse Jormungander that is found, in addition to Azi Dahaka, as Gander. Jormun means 'snake' or 'serpent', as I recall, but I always wondered where they got "gander." The Persian demoness Jeh or Jahi is found in Slavic myth as Baba Yaga in Russia and as Jezi Baba to the Czechs and Jedza to the Poles, with her minions known as the Jezinky. I believe that Jeh/Jahi was the demon of the abyss who recieves the souls of the damned before passing them off to the other demons down there. She equates to the Norse's Hel. She was also adopted by the Hebrews as Jezebel. I suspect that perhaps the Hebrew 'world serpent' Yamm was also adopted from Azi Dahaka. In Zoroastrian religion, the evil god Ahriman seems on the one hand to have made Azi Dahaka, but also to by synonymous with him. Basically, it seems that the Hebrew name for him suggests he was the 'evil twin' of god and synonymous with Satan. As you know, the Norse Ymir, Persian Yima, and Hindu Yama are all derived from a root meaning 'twin', and that Ahriman and Ormazd were also twins. In Zoroastrian religion, Ahriman and Ormazd are depicted as a black snake and white snake biting an egg. This is the primordial egg that seems to represent Spihr and/or Zurvan, the primordial creator god. These eggs are often seen as a disc or orb and also associated with gods such as Mithra. They don't have rays such as we would expect with a sun-god, but they do often have wings. This is the weird part: the Greek caduseus is a black and white snake winding around a staff with a winged disc at the top. I believe this is the motif as expressed in Zoroastrianism, with the staff and winged disc being Spihr, which is basically a version of the 'world tree' or 'north pole' with the primordial world egg at the top. The caduseus was an attribute of Apollo before be gave it to his son Asclepius. I used to wonder how Apollo was depicted as a serpent on Delos, or even how he slew the Python at Delphi considering he was in no way a thunder-god. Now I know. Delphi was the center of the world in Greek tradition. Ormazd defeated Ahriman in the center of the world before casting him into the abyss. Apollo continued this same myth in Greece. Even his birthplace on Delos makes sense: the heavenly paradise located in the center of the world, where is located in Persian myth the 'world mountain' as is found on Delos. In Russian myth the goddess Lada equates to the Greeks' Leto. There also the god Rod and goddess Ros equal Apollo and Artemis. In Norse myth they are Frey and Freya. In Welsh myth they are Don and Don. In Persian myth they are Yima and Yimak. In Hindu myth they are Yama and Yamana (or something like that). I believe that Anahita was originally Ormazda's sister before Zarathustra changed things around. This theme is played out so many times its not funny. In Greece we also have the Dioscuri and their sister Helen. One of the Dioscuri dies but is later redeemed in heaven, as the souls of the damned are destined to be at the end of time in Zoroastrianism. In Roman myth we have the twins Romulus and Remus (no sister, though). Remus dies. Mithra, who was basically an aspect of Zurvan, had two attendants - one held a torch up (immortal good son) and the other held his down (evil dying twin). Personally, I see strong Persian and Slavic mythological themes in the Gundestrap cauldron, too, though Chris Gwinn believes in the Irish Cattle Raid of Culaigne theory.