--- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> --- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., malmqvist52@... wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > --- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > http://www.varchive.org/dag/trowar.htm
> > >
> > > I don't copy it fully unto here because my post is already very
> > long
> > > but Torsten perhaps would like to comment on this:
> > >
> > > The allies of Priam also included Ethiopians under Memnon;14
the
> > > Ethiopian allies of Priam must date in all probability to the
> > period
> > > when the Ethiopians were one of the most honored nations,
highly
> > > regarded for their military prowess. What is called here
> Ethiopians
> > > were actually Sudanese: in Egyptian history the Ethiopian
Dynasty
> > and
> > > their most glorious period is dated from ca. -712 to -663, when
> > > Ashurbanipal pursued Tirhaka to Thebes, occupied it, and
expelled
> > the
> > > Ethiopian from Egypt proper. The tradition concerning Memnon,
the
> > > Ethiopian warrior who came to the help of Troy, would
reasonably
> > > limit the time of the conflict also to the end of the eighth
and
> > the
> > > beginning of the seventh century.15 The possibility of an
> Ethiopian
> > > landing at Troy in the days of the Ethiopian pharaoh Tirhaka
need
> > not
> > > be dismissed because of the remoteness of the place: as just
> said,
> > > close to the middle of the seventh century, and possibly at an
> > > earlier date, Gyges, the king of Sardis, sent in the reverse
> > > direction Carian and Ionian mercenaries to assist the Egyptian
> king
> > > Psammetichus in throwing off the Assyrian hegemony.
> > > ------
> > > Best wishes
> > > Anders
> >
> > from Snorri's prolog:
> > Near the centre of the world where what we call Turkey lies, was
> > built the most famous of all palaces and halls - Troy by name.
That
> > town was built on a much larger scale than others then in
existence
> > and in many ways with greater skill, so lavishly was it equipped.
> > There were twelve kingdoms with one over-king, and each kingdom
> > contained many peoples. In the citadel were twelve chieftains and
> > these excelled other men then living in every human fashion. One
of
> > the kings was called Múnón or Mennón. He married a daughter of
the
> > chief king Priam who was called Tróáin, and they had a son named
> > Trór - we call him Thór. He was brought up in Thrace by a duke
> called
> > Loricus and, when he was ten years old, he received his father's
> arms.
> >
> >
> Another thing that might interest you: Some people have associated
> the arrival of the Odin people in Sweden with the arrival of the
> Svear in the Mälar region. That means Sweden was territory of the
> Götar or Goths before that time.
Hi Torsten,
I really think we're onto something big here.
However I sincerely believe that Götar does NOT equal Goths. I have
learned from gothic-l that the date of the Jordanes/Cassiodorus-told
emigration of the goths from scandinavia is about 3200 years ago.
The Göts on the other hand as I now see the evidence piling up is
probaly identical to the Geats in Beowulf, a people who wre natural
enemies with the Swedes and fought severeal battles with them in the
the sixth century and probably also in the fifth c. AD. One of the
mentioned Geatish king is Hygelac, who according to Gregory of Tours
died in Frisia in 520.
Interesting is also that the first mentioned king of the Swedes'
(Sweons) is called Ongenteow, which in swedish would be Angantyr.
Whence a Van-believing(from Tyr) people!
It's also intersting is that fighting between two people in
Västergötland has just been proved. The excavators even think they
can that the people in this war sacrifice grave is Swedes because of
a horse bridle that has a close parallel in Högom in Sundsvall.:
-----
Offerplats med bevis för tidiga strider grävs ut
Vara
Vid utgrävningar av en krigsofferplats i Finnestorp i Vara kommun
anser sig nu arkeologer ha hittat belägg för att det stod strider i
Västergötland mellan götar och svear redan för femtonhundra år sen.
Det är delar av hästbetsel som tidigare bara hittats i Högom utanför
Sundsvall, och som tyder på att svear försökt erövra land i Götaland
runt 400-talet.
Utgrävningarna i Finnestorp kommer att fortsätta också nästa sommar.
Publicerat fredag 7 sep kl 17:05
Sacrifice site with proof for early fightings excavated
Vara
At excavations of war sacrificial site in Finnestorp in Vara kommun,
archaeologists now are of the opinion that they have find evidence
for the ocurrance of fightings in Västergötland
between Göts and Sveas already fifteen hundred years ago. There are
parts of a horse bridle that earlier only have been found in Högom
at Sundsvall, and that suggests that Sveas have tried to conquer land
in Götaland around the fifth century.
here is a link to the actual tv4 program:
http://www.svt.se/vastnytt/2001/010907/01090719.ram
Here are some more info and pictures:
http://home9.swipnet.se/~w-92280/finnestorpprojektet.htm
-------
The excavators also said that they saw a raven on the horse bridle,
which they said would point to a people believing in Odin.
However, I couldn't see that on the tv-pictures of the bridle, and I
doubt that you can proove that they were Odin worshippers even if
there was a bird of some sort.
Now, if the early germanic people were Van-beliving (Tiwaz/Tyr
Nerthus, Njord, Frey etc) wich I we have good reasons to believe, then
the Goths (in the first century) probably also was a van-believing
people.
Now this is where Your Jordanes quotations really become interesting.
What does he really say here?
That the king of the Egyptians make war on the goths between the
rivers Danaper and Tanais II ( the one leading to the caspian Sea).
I interpret this as:
"Aten?"/Adon/Oden?-, Osiris/Asar-believing people is in a war with a
Van-believing people between Dnepr and Volga!!!
Where have I read this before?
Heimskringla:
"On the south side of the mountains which lie
outside of all inhabited lands runs a river through Swithiod,
which is properly called by the name of Tanais, but was formerly
called Tanaquisl, or Vanaquisl, and which falls into the Black
Sea. The country of the people on the Vanaquisl was called
Vanaland, or Vanaheim; and the river separates the three parts of
the world, of which the eastermost part is called Asia, and the
westermost Europe."
and
"The country east of the Tanaquisl in Asia was called Asaland, or
Asaheim, and the chief city in that land was called Asgaard. In
that city was a chief called Odin..."
and
" OF ODIN'S WAR WITH THE PEOPLE OF VANALAND.
Odin went out with a great army against the Vanaland people; but
they were well prepared, and defended their land; so that victory
was changeable, and they ravaged the lands of each other, and did
great damage. They tired of this at last, and on both sides
appointed a meeting for establishing peace, made a truce, and
exchanged hostages. The Vanaland people sent their best men,
Njord the Rich, and his son Frey. The people of Asaland sent a
man called Hone, whom they thought well suited to be a chief, as
he was a stout and very handsome man; and with him they sent a
man of great understanding called Mime. On the other side, the
Vanaland people sent the wisest man in their community, who was
called Kvase. Now, when Hone came to Vanaheim he was immediately
made a chief, and Mime came to him with good counsel on all
occasions. But when Hone stood in the Things or other meetings,
if Mime was not near him, and any difficult matter was laid
before him, he always answered in one way -- "Now let others give
their advice"; so that the Vanaland people got a suspicion that
the Asaland people had deceived them in the exchange of men. They
took Mime, therefore, and beheaded him, and sent his head to the
Asaland people. Odin took the head, smeared it with herbs so
that it should not rot, and sang incantations over it. Thereby
he gave it the power that it spoke to him, and discovered to him
many secrets. Odin placed Njord and Frey as priests of the
sacrifices, and they became Diar of the Asaland people. Njord's
daughter Freya was priestess of the sacrifices, and first taught
the Asaland people the magic art, as it was in use and fashion
among the Vanaland people. While Njord was with the Vanaland
people he had taken his own sister in marriage, for that was
allowed by their law; and their children were Frey and Freya.
But among the Asaland people it was forbidden to intermarry with
such near relations."
So it seems that Snorri and Jordanes are in full agreement
that "their" respective peoples fought a war around Don/Tanais/
Tanais /Vanakvisl/Tanakvisl.
Amazing!
However , they somewhat disagree on what happened next.
Jordanes seems to believe that they won which I can accept. Odin and
his people then went north, which could bee seen as a victory for the
Goths.
Howevere, when Jordanes talks about chasing the loosers to Egypt, it
sounds as if he is braging too much.
Snorri on the other hand seems to be talkin of wars with Van-peple in
GENERAL, pehaps then also including those (hypothetical ones) in
Scandinavia.
Perhaps it is in Scandinavia then the peace eventually comes, but
when?
Best regards
Anders
> Torsten
>
> PS Don't leave the group. Myself, I've taken worse flak than this.
> You survive.
OK