Re: Danubian homeland?

Glen wrote

> Let's not forget that these cultural areas probably consisted
> of more than one language since culture and language do not
> necessarily overlap. I think of the Bug-Dniestr culture as people
> speaking mostly Middle IndoEuropean exchanging goods and ideas with
> the Tyrrhenians to the west (mostly LBK). However, there's nothing
> to prevent me from thinking that LBK, while perhaps initially
> Tyrrhenian, became a mix of IE and Tyrrhenian over time.
>
> As of now, my current views on languages between 7000 and 4000 BCE
> in eastern Europe are as follows. I'm sure yo'll will enjoy this
> immensely...
>
> IndoEuropean:
> -------------
> Old IE (7000-6000)
> - southward toward the shores of Lake Euxine
> - trade with Caucasians (east) and with the
> Semitish (west) develops, changing previous
> cultural movements
> - words for "cow", "sheep" and "five" borrowed from
> early NWC who have contacts with the NEC who have
> contacts with the southern Caspian
> - other words such as "bull", "six" and "seven"
> are adopted from Semitish

Rather than having half the words for domesticated anaimals coming
from one source and direction, and half from another, logic would
suggest that there was a single source - the language of the people
who developed agriculture, from which Semites, Indo-Europeans,
Tyrrhenian, Khattic and others adopted the language as they adopted
the agrarian technology.

This is similar to the way English vocabulary is spreading with the
spread of Industrial society.

> Mid IE (6000-5000)
> - largely westward (BugDniestr)
> - some displacement away from Lake Euxine by 5500
> - Semitish influence wanes by 5500 BCE as Tyrrhenians
> become dominant by 5500-5000 BCE. Tyrrhenians adopt
> IE mythological terms such as
> LateMIE *Xestér (LateIE *xste:r "star") ->
> Tyrrhenian *Xastór.

Personally I see both terms the Tyrrhenian and IE myths as coming
from the agrarian source too. For example Akkadian *Ishtar, West
Semitic *Astarte (Morning/evening star, i.e. Venus) comes from the
same source.

> LateIE (5000-4000)
> - breakup of IE by 4000 BCE as Anatolian, Celtic,
> Germanic and Italic spread into a soup of para-IE
> Tyrrhenian languages
>
> Tyrrhenian languages:
> ---------------------
> 7000 to 5500 BCE
> - westward movement from an area north of the IEs
> to a position NW of Lake Euxine, still far to
> the north
> - loanwords adopted from both Semitish and
> Vinca (ProtoHattic) - words such as *leunu
> "lion/bull" (ProtoHattic *Launon "bull")
> or *sempi "seven" (Semitish *sab`um)

I wonder whether Tyrrhenian was located to the north or south of
PIE. Tyrrhenian seems to have been the language out of which many
Mediterranean agricultural, architectiural and maritime words came
into modern Greek. eg. the olive, the grape, *thalatta (Sea), *kapta
(Pillar). This suggests that Tyrrhenian lay to the south, not the
north as Glen suggests. I wonder if there is the words for beech and
salmon, I-E words were derived from Tyrrhenian, which would indicate
a more northerly location to PIE.

> 5500 to 4000 BCE
> - southward between 5500 and 5000 as a reaction
> to Lake Euxine displacement towards the Mediterranean
> where the ailing local economy is taken over and
> further developed
> - between 5000 and 4000 BCE, Tyrrhenian spreads into
> Western Anatolia pushing Proto-Hattic and Semitish
> (aka Kaskian) into Northern Anatolia

Archaeologically there is evidence of cultural features pushing "out
of Anatolia" at this period rather than into it. Climates were
warming and there seems to have been a general trend towards people
from the south moving north, rather than people coming back the other
way. For Tyrrhenians to have moved into Anatolia they must have swum
against the population density. While there is evidence of movements
in such direcions, such movements tend to be at "climatic hiatus
periods" eg. 3150, 2350, 1628, 1189 BCE etc. when populations
temporarily crash, creating local ecological niches.

> 4000 to 3000 BCE
> - Tyrrhenian is finally displaced by IE languages
> where two main cultures (one in Greece, and
> the other in Asia Minor) develop. These cultures might
> be tentatively thought to center themselves around
> two old cities, which they called *Páraseta (Parnathos)
> and *Tarwése (Troy). Subsequently then, they identify
> themselves as either *Párasetana "Pelasgians" or
> *Tarwésena. (Hehe, that bombshell will keep yous
> thinkin' for a while...)

This is incredibly early for such movements. The coming of the
Greeks is generally dated some time between 2200 and 1900 BCE.

> Semitish:
> ---------
> 6500 to 5500 BCE
> - spoken by agricultural peoples who adopted their
> way of life from those of Eastern Turkey, first
> spread into Europe, hugging the western coast of
> Lake Euxine (since the Proto-Hattic were to the
> west). They stopped at the doorstep of peoples
> to the north speaking Early Middle IE
> - trading began with the IndoEuropeans causing
> early Semitoid loans in IE mostly pertaining to
> agriculture but also of mythology as well
>
> 5500 to 5000 BCE
> - As the Tyrrhenians take over the economy of the
> eastern Mediterranean, the Semitish slowly retreat
> southward and ultimately, they are shoved back into
> Anatolia again like a genie in a bottle by 5000 BCE
> with the ProtoHattic peoples close behind
>
> 5000 to 4000 BCE
> - finally settling in north central Anatolia, the
> people may have eventually became the mysterious
> Kaskian people which I'm having so much trouble
> finding information about!!!

Kaska seem etymologically related to the Kaukasi, Kolkhoi, Khatti,
Khurri, Khaldi, Kaspoi and Khassiti pre I-E people who lived in
Anatolia, Georgia, Armenia, northern Mesopotamia and the Zagros
mountains.

> Vinca (Proto-Hattic):
> ---------------------
> 7000 to 5500 BCE
> - spreads from the north and takes over the Balkan
> coastline between 7000 and 6000 BCE as Semitish
> agriculturalists come into Europe via the Bosporus
> - adopts Semitish words early on, like the word
> *Taurum "bull", becoming ProtoHattic *Launon with
> initial lateral fricative (*Launon > *Ta:no >
> Hattic /taru/ "storm god")
> - adopts mythology from the Semitish
>
> 5500 to 5000 BCE
> - the Lake Euxine Event hampers with the
> previous, intricate sea-trading network
> and the pressure of intrusion from the Tyrrhenians
> increases from the north until eventually the Hattic
> are displaced to the east, pushing the Semitish
> back into NW Anatolian by 5000 BCE (which in turn,
> pushes the Kartvelians eastward into the Caucasus)
> - Old European script first developped for the Vinca
> language, which lacked voiced or ejective stops but
> had labial phonemes (*kW, *tW, *sW, *nW, etc) and
> a fricative series (*f, *x, *L), lacked any
> "r"-like sound, contained two laterals (*l and *L),
> and had eight distinct vowels contrasting plain and
> nasal varieties (*a, *e, *i, *o, *u, *an, *en, *on).
> Much like Modern Japanese, it was also polysyllabic,
> had a tonal accent, and could only tolerate syllables
> of the shape (C)V.
>
> 5000 to 4000 BCE
> - as the Tyrrhenians become more culturally dominant
> from the benefits of their sea-trade ventures,
> their expansion into Anatolia, eventually drives out
> the Hattic completely into Northern Anatolia
> - so, by 4000 BCE, they end up being where they are
> eventually found in later Hittite records, right
> next to the Kaskians

What Glen suggests is that the Tyrrhenians are the substrate to Indo-
Europeans in the area of Southern Russia and the Balkans. One would
expect toponyms to reflect this situation. Are there any?

Regards

John