Re: Did IE languages spread before farming?

[Piotr]:

> During the period 3600-3000 BC wheeled vehicles appeared in various
> places from Germany to Uruk and Central Asia (the place where the
> invention took place is a matter of debate), and a good part of
>that area was likely settled by people speaking partly
>differentiated Indo- European languages. My (tentative) view is that
>the beginning of the fourth millennium BC is the most likely
>terminal date for _non- Anatolian_ IE unity.

In the book, "The Bronze age in Europe", Jean-Pierre Mohen &
Christiane Eluere, 1999, H. N. Abrams, NY, no mention of
wheeled vehicles this early, ie., in 4th millennium. All I see
is wheeled carts in later half of third millennium BC, post-2500 BC.
Appreciate references for 4th millennium wheeled vehicles
in Germany to Uruk. And, how IE is assigned to these wheeled
vehicles if they exist?

What about Mesopotamia? Is it not there wheeled transport was
invented?Prof. M. Witzel said in Indology list that IE *kwekwelo-
'wheel' is possibly from Sumerian gilgul. Sanskrit iiza- in iizvara
is related with Tamil (a Dravidian language) 'iya', 'iyai' etc.

It is also of interest that the Iran age in India is
in early First millennium BCE, and since the Rgveda mentions
iron, nowadays Sanskritists date the Rgveda in 1000-900 BCE.
(see Prof. M. Witzel's remarks arguing these dates in Indology
at Liverpool site archives). In the enthusiasm of 19th
century Indology and "Aryan-ness" etc., usually Sanskrit
texts are given liberal dates. Nowadays, they are falling in
the academe. Even Buddha's date has come down by more than a
century (eg., H. Bechert's works, and Japanese Indologists').

IE specialists look the Sanskrit data as peripheral, and the
assigned dates of 19th-20th century philology are used even
now.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> Pace Anthony, the problem is slightly more complex.
>
> First, the Anatolian languages have to be excluded. Apart from
>Hitt. hissa- `draft pole', which may be related to Slavic *ojes-
>and/or Skt. i:s.a:, vehicle technology is not much in evidence
>there; even the Anatolian `horse' words look like loans from
>(Mitanni) Indo-Aryan.
>
> Secondly, there is no single term for `wheel' or `wagon' in non-
> Anatolian IE, but rather clusters of lexemes derived from a small
> number of roots: the wheel word is either *roth2-o-/-ah2 or
>*kWekWlo- , the latter with branch-specific variants; `wagon/cart'
>words are _various_ independent derivatives of *weg^H-e- `carry'
>(used also of
> water, wind, boats, etc.). The horse (*[h1]ek^wos) was no doubt
known
> to speakers of ancestral non-Anatolian IE, but the word may also
have
> referred to wild horses.
>
> I don't believe in unconstrained diffusionism a la Renfrew, but the
> genetic unity of vehicle vocabulary is partly an illusion resulting
> from a selective approach to linguistic data (ignore Anatolian,
> ignore lexical and derivational variation ...). My guess is that
> wheel transport (ox-drawn carts and wagons) was adopted by the IEs
at
> a time when the non-Anatolian IE languages still formed a
relatively
> homogeneous block -- presumably a dialect continuum small enough
for
> innovations to be propagated without much difficulty but leaving
room
> for quite a lot of regional variation.
>
> The dates offered are definitely too shallow, just as Renfrew's are
> too deep. The end of Indo-Iranian unity must be dated ca. 2000 BC
or
> slightly earlier (a convenient dating if we want to credit the Indo-
> Iranians with the invention and dissemination of horse-drawn
> chariots. Sufficient time is also needed to account for
reconstructed
> earlier events and the degree of differentiation evident by the mid-
> second millennium.
>
> During the period 3600-3000 BC wheeled vehicles appeared in various
> places from Germany to Uruk and Central Asia (the place where the
> invention took place is a matter of debate), and a good part of
that
> area was likely settled by people speaking partly differentiated
Indo-
> European languages. My (tentative) view is that the beginning of
the
> fourth millennium BC is the most likely terminal date for _non-
> Anatolian_ IE unity.
>
>
> Piotr
>
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@..., naga_ganesan@... wrote:
>
>
> > The IE intrusion into India, in the times of post-Indus culture
> > decline has not much to do with the glacier melts 12800 BP.
> >
> > The IE expansion from the homeland is after the wheeled transport
> > technology was invented and before chariotry. Prof. David Anthony
> > (Archaeology dept., Harvard university) publishes that the
wheels,
> > vehicle technology could have been invented by others.
(Archaeology
> > shows the inventions in the Near East). But at the time of
> invention
> > of wheels, vehicle technology, PIE existed as one single
community.
> > This is after 3500 B.C.
> >
> > David Anthony, Shards of Speech, 1995, Antiquity, v. 69
> > "Terms for wheel, axle and draft pole, and a verb meaning 'to go
or
> > convey in a vehicle' suggest that PIE existed as a single
language
> > after 3500 B.C., when wheeled vehicles were invented. PIE must
have
> > begun to disintegrate before 2000 B.C.: by 1500 B.C. three of its
> > daughter languages - Greek, Hittie and Indic - had become quite
> > dissimilar. Altogether, then the linguistic evidence points to a
> > homeland between the Ural and Caucasus mountains, in the
centuries
> > between 3500 and 2000 B.C." ...