Re: When Germani?

--- In cybalist@..., celteuskara@... wrote:

>
> >Just for the record, that's different from my view.
> >I think proto-Germanic was first used by some traders on the

Russian

> >rivers when trading at the European watershed around the Tanew

river,

> >as I think Piotr suggested. This is the area where according to
> >classical Greek writers Celtic and Scythic clash. ("Celto-Scythic
> >bastardisation"). In my view it was at first a pidgin language,

but

> >possibly became a creole as people settled permanently in the
> >transshipment area. It was one of the twelve languages Snorri
> >mentions. When "Odin" (or whoever he was) left with his followers
> >(from the city of Tanais?) around 70 BCE to avoid the invasion of
> >Pompey he left behind what was to become the East Germanic

speakers.

> >He arrived in Thuringia and set up a kingdom and distributed land

to

> >his followers. They used there the creole that they used to use in
> >the area closest to their new home, ie. Germanic. This was the
> >beginning of West Germanic languages."Odin" then moved on to

Odense,

> >set up a kingdom and distributed land there and sent an expedition

to

> >Sweden. This was the beginning of the North Germanic languages.
> >Snorri in the Prolog says that the language of the invaders became
> >the language of the land. The fragmentation and elitism of the

Celtic

> >languages favored the spread of the new creole (even today, no

matter

> >how fervently nationalist a Welshman and Irishman are, when they
> >communicate, it is in English). Also, the Celtic tribes were

weakened

> >and scattered by the Cimbric invasions. In short, the story of
> >England was just a repeat performance.
> >This, I think would match Caesar's first being aware of

distinction

> >between the Galli and the Germani ("true" Galli) around 59 BCE.
> >
> >Torsten
> >
>
> And so our Odin becomes something of an analogue to the Celtic

Brennus/Bran who pops up in chronologically impossible places
whenever Celtic spreads somewhere. This is an interesting parallel
phenomenon, eh?

>
> Beinn Mac an Gheairr
>
> >Vae victis.
>
>

Vae victis yourself. Where are those "chronologically impossible
places" that "Odin" (as opposed to Odin) pops up?

BTW Benveniste doesn't mention German <weihen> "consecrate" etc in
his discussion of Lat. <vinco>, <victima> etc. To turn Benvenistish:
doesn't the Germanic idea of "consecrating" the enemy by throwing a
spear at his army mean that from now on, they're "dead men walking"?
(Funny how can find these proto-things well preserved in the USA,
wile they're dead in the old land, "luck" is another example.)
Which reminds me: Brennus' "vae victis" is sufficiently simple an
utterance and Italic and Celtic then sufficiently close that he may
have uttered it in Celtic and yet be understood. Did he really
mean: "Forget this. Kill <vae> the "victims" " (as <fas> is)?

Torsten