From: João S. Lopes Filho
Message: 9033
Date: 2001-09-04
> r-zero) *Rodici > Roiz
----- Original Message -----From: CheSent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 5:23 AMSubject: Re: [tied] Patronymics; -sen, -ezAnd what about a "Rodericus" > Roderici ?. It's seems likely to be alright, doesn't it? I imagine Rodericus is the latin right form (Didacus > catalan Didac; Catalan Roderic > latin rodericus ?)----- Original Message -----From: João S. Lopes FilhoSent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 1:38 AMSubject: Re: [tied] Patronymics; -sen, -ezI think there's still some problems with -icus. I don't know if there's attested examples of icus-suffix in Personal Names.A name whose patronymic is easily explained is DIOGO (Port.)/DIEGO (Span.) > DIAS, DIEZLatinDIDACUS > hypothetical *Diducus and *Didicus > Diogo and Diegogen. DIDACI > Diaz > Dias, Diez----- Original Message -----From: CheSent: Monday, September 03, 2001 7:28 PMSubject: Re: [tied] Patronymics; -sen, -ezYou missinterpreted my statement. I said "during the years we're talking about". Germanic languages have no possibility to directly influence Spanish/Portuguese after the arabian conquest of the peninsula, as there's no more germanic newcomers after that (except of Carolus Magnus and his boys, who stablished the Marca Hispanica, it is, the Catalan Counties). From this point of view, OF COURSE there's some more INDIRECT influence, but always through French and specially Occitan (and usually Catalan, though the traditional confusion between these two languages and a certain racism from spaniards towards catalans have mislead to atribute every single loan in spanish to Occitan rather than Catalan) loans.About the s > r change, there's no such a replacement. The process is this: Gisclasind > Giscla + sind / Gumersind > Gumer + sind; I don't know what that "-sind(us)" suffix means, but it's clearly an addon thing that can be dropped to uncover the "root" of the name. Giscla + areny / gumer/gombre + areny = Gisclareny, Gombreny. An (un: masc. and sing.) "areny" is that sandy area on the sides of rivers and other water flows (not necessarily a beach > "platja"). There are many toponims like that: Balsareny, Estelareny, Bastareny... within the Old Catalonia (it is the northern part before starting conquest towards south), the most Germanised.Finally, we seem to agree that the -ici theory is the most likely to be the true, don't you think?----- Original Message -----From: João S. Lopes FilhoSent: Monday, September 03, 2001 3:50 PMSubject: Re: [tied] Patronymics; -sen, -ezThe Gothic (Visigoth) influence in Portuguese/Spanish is not so little as you sad. Many of the more usual patronymics are derived from Germanic names: Fernandes, Raimundes, Bermudes, Bernardes, Leonardes, Sisenandes, Trutesendes, Goisendes, Galindes, Rodrigues (Roiz, Ruiz, Roriz), Hermiges, Trocosendes.About -icus theory: according to Professor Rosario Mansur Guerios (Dicionario Etimologico de Nomes e Sobrenomes [Etymological Dictionary of Names and Surnames]) : Ferdinand > Latinized Ferdinandus > *Ferdinandicus, whose genitive was Ferdinandici > Fernandez > FernandesThe widespread use of patronymics in Medieval Iberian kingdoms would come from its use in Arabian (Salim ibn Daud).How could Gumesind>Gombreny; Gisclasind>Gisclareny? Is this a normal Catalan change? (-s- > -r- ?)----- Original Message -----From: CheSent: Monday, September 03, 2001 6:28 AMSubject: Re: [tied] Patronymics; -sen, -ezOkay, nice theories.But in this case I don't think an euskeric origin is too probable, at least originally.In euskera, "-(e)z" is not exactly "made of", but rather an instrumental mark. So, for instance, "Hegazkin(e)z noa" means "I (am) go(ing) by plane", and "eskuaz agurtzen ari da" means "he is hailing with his hand" (free translation of a poor sintax sentence :-)The sense of "made of" is expressed by the mark "-ezko", and can be applied in a more general way to express "kind of". So, "burdinezko" > made of iron; while "gezurrezko" > "looking like a lie", etc.I must admit, however, that this -ezko can be -ez + -ko, being the last one a very used suffix expressing a general (and badly expressed) "of": Irungo (from/of Irun), arte ederrako ("of" the Beaux Arts), etc. and it's generally difficult to translate without a context (that's why it's so difficult for me to find good examples...)About the -ici, once you explain the process, I think it's quite probable, don't you think? I say that because the Germanic theory doesn't make too much sense for me.First because germanic influence on the language is rather little (I'd say non existing) during the years we're talking about (it took place almost exclusively during the first stages of the linguistic dissimilation from Latin) while we can state that the use of Latin is still alive, specially within the Church, so it makes sense to think about a Baptism ceremony in latin introducing that -ici which would be pronounced /isi/.What I must admit, again, is the well known transition from romance /c/ to /z/ in basque, so /ici/>/izi/ and then /ez/ which lately would have been thetasised /eth/ to distinguish between /s/ and /z/. It fits quite a lot with the fonetic euskerization of Spanish that took place several times along the Middle Ages. That would explain that portuguese maintained the original -is sound instead of /th/ising like spanish did.However, this -ez is not found in any basque surname, while basque surnames are full of suffixes and marks: Aranguren: from our Valley; Goikoetxea: the House Up There; Etxeberria: The (that -a is a flexión, too) New House (like Casanova...) etc., but not a single -ez or similarsSecond because as I explained, this featuring is almost non existing in modern catalan and definitively unknown in classical Catalan and seems to be addopted from Spanish. This seems like that to me because, in spite of it's poor influence on the language itself, what IS really influenced in Catalan by our Germanic adstratum is patronymics. In fact, most original Catalan family names and traditional given names are Germanic, which usually gave toponims: Gumesind>Gombreny; Gisclasind>Gisclareny; Franculinn>Francolí; antroponims: Guimerà<Wigmarane; Geltrú<Wisaltrud, etc. a part of those tipical Robert, Albert, Norbert, Guillem, Carles, etc. And no consequent -is surnames are found anywhere.----- Original Message -----From: João S. Lopes FilhoSent: Monday, September 03, 2001 12:15 AMSubject: Re: [tied] Patronymics; -sen, -ez1)The origin suffix -ez/-es is a very disputed question.Some scholars sugest an euskara suffix -ez "made of" - berun "lead" / berunez "made of lead"Another ones sugest Latin -ici (genitive of -icus)The most probable is the Gothic genitive ending -is.Hrothareik (>Rotharicus > Rodrigo) : gen. Hrothareikis (>Rotharicis > Rodrigues)2)Would be Sancho < *Sanctius , through a dialectal form ?In Portuguese there's a a lot of examplesFernando : FernandesRodrigo : RodriguesDomingos : DominguesJoa~o : Eanes/Enes/AnesSima~o : Simo~esAntonio : AntunesNuno : NunesDiogo : Dias----- Original Message -----From: CheSent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 10:21 AMSubject: Re: [tied] Patronymics; -sen, -ezI'm sure that's another Europe spread thing of those that seem to have taken place during that time.I'm talking about the characteristic -ez family name former suffix in Spanish (-ez surnames are absolutely predominant in Spain) and, I can imagine, Portuguese -es. In Catalan we have an equivalent for that in -is, but it seems to be something almost exclusive of Valencian surnames which may have been originally the translation of those castillian -ez's, like Pérez (son of Pero>Pedro) -> Peris; Fernández (son of Fer(di)nando) -> Ferrandis (son of Ferran), etc. It happens with a few ones only. I think Catalan, once more, keeps the gaulic tradition (does this -es/-ez/-sen/-son... thing happen in French?).Oh! Going back to my little theory about the Gartzia's and their influence in southern spanish and american, I noticed that another "pure castillian" surname like "Sánchez" which comes from Sancho is Basque origined, too. It comes from (navarrese) basque patronymic "Antso" (it is proven, not my invention) and is, together with García (bizkaian), Rodríguez (germanic->castillian), and Fernández (germanic->castillian) within the top four in the spanish raking of usual surnames. Just info, nothing else.