From: Che DeBarna
I was sure it had to happen somewhere in Brazil! Thanks for the info.
Then... mmm... I've got my own theory about Latin American Spanish, which I believe to reflect a different thing that an "andalusian" dialect. How much has Andalusia been Castillian before the (re)discovery of America? Is this period long enough for "andalusian" to become so different to "regular" Castillian? I don't think so... I'd rather think seriously about basque influence (no, it's not that I'm obsessed about basque, it's just that in my opinion it has always been unfairly ignored). Just notice that the most of the "conquistadores" where either directly basque-born or sons of those basques (more specifically: bizkaians) who migrated towards the south (that includes Extremadura) searching for a job in what was their specialty: the sea. Standing there as an evidence is the fact that the most common family name in the whole Spain is "Garc�a", but not the original Bizkaian one, but the southern! In my opinion, basque sailors and "conquistadores" are responsible for the special american "s", identical to basque "z" and of the famous american "voseo", it is, the substitution of the second person singular pronoun "tu" by "vos", which is gramatically equivalent to the 2nd plural "vosotros" (like English thou>you). It is something that happened by the same time in basque "hi" ("thou") is replaced by "zu" ("you"). The difference with English is that this kept "you" for both sing. and plural, while basque created a regular plural for "zu">"zuek" and american spanish used its original "vosotros".
A part of these features, I'm strongly interested about discussing what I think is a more wide and deep influence of Basque (phonetics, grammar) on regular spanish (like the loss of that Latin "f-" > "aspirated h-" > "mute h-", like in gascon).
>From: "Jo�o S. Lopes Filho" >Reply-To: email@example.com >To: >Subject: Re: [tied] -lh- >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:43:43 -0300 > >I think the Andaluzia pronounce influenced most of Latin American Spanish. > >In Standard Portuguese there is no yodization of lh. But in some particular dialects in hinterland Brazil there's the coloquial change -lh- > -i- >e.g. vermelho "red", /vermel^u/ > /vermeyu/. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Che DeBarna > To: firstname.lastname@example.org > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 11:28 AM > Subject: Re: [tied] -lh- > > > You're right. > > Well,but one single thing: in modern spanish, /L/ is still written "ll", a different thing is that the lateral palatal is evolving into /j/ (iodization, a.k.a. "yeismo"). Though it is very widespread, the Real Academia says that the right pronnouncing is /L/ (and so I believe). I think this is a phenomenon with a southern spanish origin that is spreading north (in Andalusia you will never hear /L/, while you may easily in North Castille) and affecting the other languages within spain (i'm speaking as a catalan...) Does iodization take place in Portuguese? > > > > >From: "Jo�o S. Lopes Filho" > >Reply-To: email@example.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: [tied] -lh- > >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:43:43 -0300 > > > >Anouilh is definitely not Portuguese. Must be Occitan. Lh in portuguese is > >allways pre-vocalic. > > > >The Palatal L is written as > > > >lh - Portuguese, Occitan > >ll - Catalan, Old Spanish (in Modern spelled like z^ or dz^) > >gli - Italian > > > >cf. > >Latin coagulu > Italian caglio - Obvaldic cuagl - Old French cail - Occitan > >calh - Catalan coall - Portuguese coalho - Spanish cuajo > > > >Latin folia > Italian foglia - Obvaldic feglia - French feuille - Occitan > >folha - Portuguese folha - Catalan full - Spanish hoja - Rumanian foaie > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:32 AM > >Subject: [tied] -lh- > > > > > > > --- In cybalist@..., "Che DeBarna" wrote: > > > > As far as my French skills and my Catalan native speaker condition > > > let me go (this time my Spanish-second-language-speaker condition is > > > not useful), I'd say that "fenouil" and "Louis" are pronnounced in > > > different ways. The first one is - I would - pronnounced /f@'nuj/ and > > > the second one is rather /lu'i/ - my international phonetic system > > > should be refreshed in my mind, I know... As Piotr (I think) > > > said, /f@'nui/ is a iodization of the original lateral palatal final > > > sound. I can confirm this because in most Eastern Catalan dialects > > > this happens too, and this form lives together with the original form > > > (lateral palatal). The same can be applied to "Louis": as far as my > > > experience let me know, there's an equivalence between Catalan "o" > > > and French "ou" (in Northern dialects, stressed closed "o" is > > > executed /u/), it is, originally, French "ou" comes from a > > > single "o". Then, if we assume that the pair "oi" is always an > > > hyatus, never a diphtong, we can understand the same for > > > current "oui" group (I repeat, actually it is an "oi"), at least if > > > pronnouced accurately (a well different thing happens when speaking > > > more naturally, of course...) > > > > > > I'm not a native, but Catalan may help for this issue. > > > P.S.: Anouilh Portuguese? I don't think they have final "-lh"! I'm > > > sure it is a gallization (?) of something like "Anulh" (?) and > > > originally pronnounced /a'nuL/ where "L" means "lateral palatal". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I recall seeing a readside advertising board just north of the French > > > Spanish border, east side, in the local language ((true?) Catalan) > > > which had "sun". > > > > > > Torsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >