Re: Odin as a Trojan Prince

--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
>
> [Piotr:] Maciej of Miechów's extremely influential _Tractatus de
> Duabus Sarmatiis, Asiana et Europiana_ (1517) gave rise to
> the "Sarmatian myth", according to which Polish noble families
> derived from Sarmatian warriors.
>
> [Torsten:] The latter idea is obviously preposterous, since had it
> been true there would have been a lot of Indo-Iranian loanwords in
> Polish and indeed Slavic - eg. "bog".
>
>
> Dear Torsten,
>
> The Slavic homeland was so close to areas controlled by the

Iranians

> that contact was inevitable and the presence of Iranian cultural
> loans in Slavic is both expected and well documented. I also

suspect

> there might be borrowings in the opposite direction (the "egg" word
> seems to me to be one of them). Maciej of Miechów was interested in
> something different from tracing cultural influences -- he

attempted

> to trace the origin of a whole social class in Poland to Iranian
> roots.

> Basing his opinion on vague mentions in Roman geographical
> sources he claimed that the Polish/Lithuanian Commonwealth was a
> direct successor of the Sarmatian empire and that the Polish gentry
> were Sarmatian in a very literal sense. Well, that's a myth if ever
> was one.
>
> To give you some idea of what our early historians were concerned
> with, and how reliable their sagas are, here is my faithful summary
> of a few episodes from Master Vincent's chronicle (1202).
>
> ALEXANDER
>
> After the death of Queen Wanda, daughter of King Gracchus (a.k.a.
> Krak, the founder of Kraków), Alexander the Great sent ambassadors

to

> the Lekhites (Poles), demanding tribute. The Lekhites refused to

pay

> and the ambassadors were ruthlessly put to death. In retalialion,
> Alexander descended upon Pannonia and then led his armies through
> Moravia into Poland, ravaging and plundering the land. Prospects
> appeared gloomy for the Poles at first, but Alexander was outwitted
> and his military plans were thwarted thanks to one man's ingenuity.

A

> certain local artisan fashioned a large number of wooden helmets

and

> shields, painted them gold and silver so that they would gleam in

the

> sun, and arranged them on a hill so that they would be visible from
> afar, looking for all the world like a line of well-equipped
> warriors. With this simple decoy, an enemy patrol was lured and
> ambushed. The rest was relatively easy: Lekhites dressed up in the
> battle-gear of slain Macedonians infiltrated the camp of their foes
> and launched a surprise attack, resulting in the abject defeat and
> inglorious flight of Alexander. The resourceful artisan, who

assumed

> the name Lestek (meaning "a cunning one"), was then elected

chieftain

> by his grateful countrymen and eventually came to the throne of
> Poland as Lestek I.
>
> JULIUS CAESAR
>
> Years later, Julius Caesar planned to invade Poland, but was

repelled

> in three battles by Lestek III, a mighty monarch whose power

extended

> as far as the lands of the Greeks and the Parthians. It was he, by
> the way, who had defeated Crassus in Parthia. Like James Bond,

Lestek

> had a penchant for witty remarks at dramatic moments: "Thirsty for
> gold? Here, drink some," he said, while pouring molten metal down
> Crassus' throat -- but I am digressing. Caesar was so captivated by
> Lestek's military genius and sense of humour that he gave his

sister

> Julia to him in marriage to cement their frienship. He granted her
> Bavaria as dowry, and Lestek added Serbia as a wedding gift. Alas,
> the Roman Senate was vehemently hostile to the marriage, and the
> alliance was nipped in the bud: Caesar tried to withdraw from the
> contract and would have Bavaria back. Lestek, embittered by his
> brother-in-law's lack of loyalty, repudiated Julia and sent her

back

> to Rome, but their little son Pompilius stayed with the father and
> later became Pompilius I of Poland.
>
> KING POPIEL AND MICE (all Polish schoolchildren know this story, as
> it sets the stage for the foundation myth of the historical Piast
> dynasty)
>
> Nothing of substance is known about Pompilius I, but his successor
> Pompilius II (better known as Popiel) was by all accounts a
> treacherous, cowardly and sadistic character. Fearing that his
> uncles, who governed the provinces and dependencies of his kingdom,
> might be plotting to overthrow him, he invited them to a feast.

Sure

> enough, specially prepared drinks were served, and after the first
> round the uncles collapsed, writhing in their death throes, while
> Popiel rubbed his hands and chuckled. He ordered that the corpses
> should be left unburied for dogs and crows to lunch on. However, a
> plague of mice swarmed out of the dead bodies. Popiel and his

family

> ran away and sought safety in a tall tower, but the mice nibbled
> their way through the gate and stormed inside, squeaking horribly

and

> devouring everyone. If you visit Kruszwica on Lake Goplo in central
> Poland, you will be shown the Mouse Tower, the supposed scene of

the

> incident.
>
> Piotr

You've convinced me. It would be very difficult to retrieve whatever
historical account might be hidden in those sources. I considered for
a moment to replace Caesar with *a* Caesar, but no.
I notice you don't quote Maciej of Miechów, the one with the supposed
Sarmatian connection?

As for Snorri, I don't believe in guilt (or unreliability) by
association. I still find his story credible.

Torsten