Re: [tied] Re: Affects of immigrant communities in language change

J Crary:

>The thing that has always troubled me about the time dept of
>Tyrrhenian is that the Etruscan culture appears to developed
>in the LB and EI age from the Villanova Culture.

Wait, wait. What (or whose) views specifically are you addressing?
Etruscan is related closely to Lemnian, that much is apparent.
Lemnian is... well, in Lemnos (duh!). This requires us to accept
a late Etruscan voyage across the Mediterranean from the east.

However, I sense that the origin of Rhaetic is something different,
having spread across via land, not sea, to Italy via the north.
When you say that "the Etruscan culture appears to developed
in the LB and EI age from the Villanova Culture", I don't know
what you're talking about because as far as I'm concerned, the
Etruscans were a people from the sea.

To sum up, my view is that Tyrrhenian itself was centred in
Eastern Europe with EtruscoLemnian to the south of this area,
and Rhaetic to the north around 5000 BCE.

J Crary:

>As you know the Villanova is the central Italian
>variety of the Urnifeld Culture. The culture in
>Italy before the Villanova intrusion is a
>mix to Tumulus Culture and something else, possibly local.
>Thus, because this forms a single, rather homogeneous expression,
>whatever cultural-linguistic complex establish IE Italic
>also appears to have established the Tyrrhenian
>Etruscan complex as well.

First, you mean to say "Tyrrhenian Rhaetic complex" and second
of all, you mean to tell me that IE spread into Europe between
5000 and 4000 BCE along with Rhaetic?? Me no comprendo. Let's
see if we can unravel these misunderstandings.

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gLeNny gEe
...wEbDeVEr gOne bEsErK!

home: http://glen_gordon.tripod.com
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>
>The other problem is that the culture preceding the Villanova-
>Urnfiled in Italy, is very similar to the the Tumulus-Beaker
>complex, which is clearly associated with the
>development of proto-Celt. As you know with the
>exception of the q-p shift and subject-first,
>Italic and primitive Celt lingos are not that different.
>There just isn't much room in Italy for an PIE
>language to survive. This is because the people associated
>with IE languages tend to seek out and occupy the most
>central or economic geographic setting.
>Thus, the replacement of earlier IEs by bigger
>and badder IEs is not a question of if, but rather when.
>
>Another problem is the Tyrrhenian foundation mythology.
>Herodotus wrote that the Tyrrhenians were the result of a
>sea-born western Anatolic migration. Herodotos, claimed these people
>were called Pelasgians, adding that they also
>occupied the islands of Lemnos and Imbros, as well.
>Interestingly, Thucydides wrote that the inhabitance
>of Lemnos and Imbros were called Tyrrhenians.
>Strabo. V, 2, 4, wrote that the Pelasgians-Etruscans
>migrated to Italy with a king called Thyrrenos
>and they were the same ethnic groups that settled several Aegean
>isles, as well as several coastal areas.
>This includes the Greek peninsula of Akte.
>
>Getting back to the foundation myth, Telephus, has two
>sons Tarchon and Tyrrhenus. Tarchon founds the
>Etruscan city of Tarquinia and Tyrrhenus is the
>hero-king of the Tyrhenians. If I remember correctly
>wasn't there a Hittite god called Telepinus, or something
>like that?
>
>So what does it all mean? I not sure. I appears that
>there may have been a deeply rooted non IE/PIE peasantry
>overlain by compressed strata of proto-Celt/Italic
>dominated by some Anatolic expression, with abandoned material
>trappings but not the lingo?
>
>Sorry i really dont know much about the Etrus--
>
>
>
>JS Crary
>

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