Re: Celtic Jutland

--- In cybalist@..., "Joseph S Crary" <pva@...> wrote:

> Celt Tribes of Jutland
>
> Teutoni Basitiam Sjæland-Zealand
> Oeonae Fyen-Funen
> Latrim Lolland
>
> Cimbri Cimbrorum Himmerland-Nordjylland-
> Vendsyssel

see below

> Cimbrorum Djursland-Arhus
> Promunturium
> East Viborg
> Codanus Skagen-Skaw
>
> Aloci Cimbrorum West Viborg
>
> Chali Cimbrorum Ringkøbing
>
> Charudi Cimbrorum Varde-Ribe-Vejle
>
> Cohandi Cimbrorum Slesvig-North Schleswig-
> Sønderjylland
>
> Aduatuci Cervicem Slesvig-South Schleswig
>
> Ambroni Saxony-Holsten
>

The suggested identifications that I know of:
Cimbri - Himmersysæl (Himmerland)
Teutones - Thiuthæ sysæl (Thy)
Charudes - Hardersyssel (around Ringkøbing?)
Ambrones - The Hallig (North Friesian) island of Amrum.
(Vandali - Wendlæ sysæl (Vendsyssel))
As one can see on a map the Cimbri could control the eastern, and the
Teutones the western part of the Limfjord.

> After reflecting on what you wrote about the water passage of
> northeast Jutland I looked the following up. I believe we both have
> figured out the Teutons controlled the narrow sounds that run by

the

> Danish isles and the Cimbri controlled the Jutlandic land route.

Then

> there is the narrow water way between thenorthern islands

immediately

> north and northeast of Himmerland
>
> From Beowulf:
>
> þæm selestan be sæm tweonum,
> þara the on Sceden-igge sceattas dælde.
>
> who has lived at the two seas
> and distributed gifts in Scania.
>
>
> I wasn't aware that sea passage was too dangerous.

I read somewhere that there are 50,000 wrecks in Danish waters.
Now, the

> earthquake-wave story takes on even more meaning. Initially I

though

> that the wave had just wrecked fishing weirs, coastal agriculture,
> and boats. However I'm wondering if the wave may have reopened the
> passage, as well.

Maybe. Denmark is tipping, geologically speaking, along an axis from
Lemvig on the Jutland West Coast, to Præstø on the Sealand East
Coast. North of the line the country (along with the rest of
Scandinavia) is rising, south of it, sinking, up to one milimeter pr.
year. At least the Ambrones would be exposed to disaters in the
Halligen. In a 14th century flood, the Grote Man-drenke (man-
drowning), most of the island of Nordstrand disappeared. Hundreds
died. As to how much of the lands of the Cimbri and Teutones has been
swallowed by the sea, no one knows. Almost no undersea exploration
has been done in the North Sea.
I forgot about the Sløj channel. It went though Thy, I believe in the
vicinity of the village of Frøstrup. There still remains an inlet
there, later partially reclaimed.

>
> http://www.abc.se/~m10354/publ/cult-land.htm

I like his reference to Braudel, whose ideas should be used more
often (also because they give some sense to the extravagant claims I
make on behalf of the Danish past). Basically his theories are the
application to history of the area economics theories of von Thünen
and Friedrich List, who are not known much outside of Germany.

>
> At the transition to another zone there are often found natural
> obstacles of different kinds (the river mouth banks, other

sediments

> in sea routes, mountain ranges, rapids or cataracts, with portages,
> hauling or carrying sites, dangerous points, promontories and
> shallows/ banks. They mean the reloading of cargo and the change of
> means of transport at a well-defined site (transit/ion point,
> transit/ion/ pivot ), for an accompanying water or land transport

in

> the new zone.
>
> Some of these transit points are sometimes temporary, especially in
> an area of mobile quaternary deposits. In the Scandinavian area

there

> are two dangerous points par préference, The Skaw/ Skagen on
> Jutland
> and Falsterbo Reef in Scania.
>
> The Skaw is the dividing line between the North Sea and the

Kattegat.

> If the Limfiord passage through Jutland was closed, which happened
> several times during ancient times the Reef was an almost
> unsurmountable barrier to shipping (at least from around 1150). The
> northernmost tip of Jutland appeared at times as a sandy

archipelago.

> From the outside (W.) of the Reef an earlier outlet for passages to
> and fro Norway, called the Sløj channel, closed around 1100. It
> was
> infinitely safer in passages fro the North Sea to the Baltic to go
> overland at the root of Jutland (cf the early prominence of Ribe,
> Hamburg and other Atlantic sites)

Haithabu (Hedeby) at the present city of Schleswig was the big tranit
point. Up the Treene, and down the Schlei. Hence the need for a wall
here (the Danevirke).

or in exceptional cases to sail

> directly to South Norway and to hug the present Swedish west coast
> southward. Skippers valiantly doubling the Reef, ummelandsfarer,
> presumably in cogs, are known from historical sources around 1255,
> but seem to have existed for some time then.
>
> By the way what does Skaw mean? Is it a Danish word? Just asking
> because there is an Irish warrior-seer deity named Scath pronounced
> Skaw. I'm sure these are superficial similarities and nothing more.

The dictionaries say it's derived from <skage> a strip of land. But
Holland also has a Schagen, and Skagerrak (Schager rak cf. Langerak
in Holland) is definitely Dutch and not Danish, as is Kattegat (quade
Gat = evil hole; I saw this recently, I would have thought it was
= "cat's loophole" ie. narrow passage). Most of the sea and island
names in other languages are derived from Dutch, since they published
the first sea charts.

> JS Crary

Torsten