Re: [tied] Jatvingians

Yes, I know the Old Polish forms and they look so authentic that it has never occurred to me they might represent a secondary (East) Slavic name, especially in view of the -ing- spelling (why not -e,g- or -a(n)g-, for God's sake? THIS is what has always made me believe in the Baltic origin of "Jatving-"). Apart from Dlugosz's <Jaczwingorum natio> we have Miechowita's <Jaczwingi>, and Bielski's <Jac'wingowie>, to mention a few relatively early sources. The Jatving country is called <Jac'wiez.>, apparently a denasalised version of *<Jac'wie,z.>. Maybe there WAS a "Jatva-inger" type of Baltic nickname applied to the Sudovians, like you suggest, or a secondary Baltic term inspired by the East Slavic term inspired by the structure of Germanic ethnonyms... Sorry, I think my brain is reeling.

Piotr

----- Original Message -----
From: Sergejus Tarasovas

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:45 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Baltic *-ing-

... I also prepared a large post on Jatvingians yesterday night, but lost it due a computer crash. In short: to make my story less sensational I should note that Old Polish *jac'ving (?), rendered as 'gens Jaczwingorum' by Dl/ugosz must be considered. May be it reflects a common nickname, popular between Slavs, or have developed under the East Slavic influence. On the other hand, mediaeval Latin (properly German) sources don't actually show any -ing-: (quoting from memory) '(terram) Jetuen uocant' (-en from German toponymic neutrum, like in Bayern?) 'Jetuese' (ethnonym) (<East Slavic?) '(terra) Jotuiorum' (<*ja:tvi:-?) One of the most characteristical features of Jotvingian hydronymy is a strong tendency to form hydronyms with the -i:ng- suffix (with meanings like 'a lake full of stones', 'a really deep river' etc), so *ja:tvi:ng- could be a pejorative nickname given them by the neighbouring Balts (something like 'those ingers from *Ja:tva:'). Interstingly enough, all of my sources state that in toponymy, a characteristic [Jatvezi etc]:[Su:duv-/Da:inav-] border in general matches the ethnic [the Slavs]:[the Balts] border. The more so, it seemes the Balts have never called Jatvingians *ja:tv(i:ng)-, but rather *Su:d(u)v- or *Da:in(u:a)v-, which probably supports merely Slavic origin of the Slavic *jatve,gU. Sergei