Re: [tied], Re:, Urartu.

From: Rex H. McTyeire
Message: 8121
Date: 2001-07-26

Attachments :

O-: cas111jd   responds:
O-: Cilicia was already a vassal state.

Wasn't trying to sell a candidate, just offer options..we don't know.  A rebelling vassal is one of a long list of things that caused empire compilers trouble.

O-: ..Assyria for aid. It seems unlikely that a small state like Cilicia
O-: could manage to defeat the Assyrian grande armee, even in
O-: ambush.

Document the request for aid? Sargon II was active against Phrygians as well. We don't know the degree of defeat..just the indicator that Sargon was killed.  You can't keep putting super refugees everywhere it is convenient to sell your point. The counter point remains: if they were that tactically sound..they would not be refugees. :-)  The location of his demise was south and not often contested. 

O-: I believe the Cimmerians were mounted
O-: warriors, the remnants that had survived and chosen to flee
O-: after an initial Scythian defeat on the steppes.

They were very contest.

O-: Why should we not suspect that Cimmerian pastoralists lingered in central
O-: Anatolia, with their mobile tool kits too scanty to recognize today? They didn't
O-: last very long, so why should we claim that without archaeological
O-: evidence, we  must conclude that they did not exist?

Nobody is arguing they didn't exist: I agree an element wound up in Central Anatolia, I just don't agree that every event and reverse of History in all of wide Anatolia for a century and a half was attributable to one group or one people that history then looses.

O-: Their presence was ephemeral.

 I agree; too much so to accomplish what you suggest for the period covered.

O-: After the Lydians defeated them, they probably surrendered
O-: without a  fight to the Medes and their leaders assimilated into the
O-: Pax Medea/  Persae.

You are combining too much territory, time, and events here to even be realistic. Have you ever traveled from Lydia to Medea?  By your scenario it would have to be Crimea to Caucasus to Phrygia..Sardis, Magnesia, Ephesus on into Lydia..back to Phrygia then Media..and somehow south to kill Sargon II as well as settled in Cappadochia; all over a century or so.  (That’s not very ephemeral.)

There are three arch schools (in the east) on the Cimmerians, I will summarize with some bias obvious :-):

The Terronozkin:  To the North of the Black Sea  existed a single definable ethnic group with clear borders presenting a unitary recognizable arch culture which ceased evolution and abruptly ended with Scythian incursion to the Dniester; unconditionally equated by groups of archaeological finds with the populations mentioned by Herodotus. (Supported also by many others in print as late as 1994)

The Jessen:  (Older) ca. 1953, :  The cultures (with regional or site names applied) were contemporary and semi-homogenous over a wider time period and area without break (extending further east, past the Volga.) containing more than two identifiable horse nomad subcultures intermingled and no one extinguishing the other.  This emerged from the following observation: "Both the Scythians and the Cimmerians known from Assyrian sources have been identified with the bearers of the archaic Scythian culture."
(quote by Dorin Sarbu, Romanian Archaeological Professional Association )

The  Leskov: ( a mediated Jessen; adopted by  the former Soviet Archaeological School) This yielded a simplified lumping of elements based on horses and horse technology alone into a single state like map entry called Scythia from prehistory forward to Scythian dispersal, from west of the Danube mouth to well beyond the Volga, IE there was no Cimmeria and Thrace was tiny.  (This image has apparently influenced your view, except you want to make Cimmeria the map entity name  extending far to the east;  and charge Scythians with late entry north of the Caucasus, rather than just to the Dniester.)

Neither is totally accurate.   The chronology of change is in doubt, but no one to my knowledge has tried to pin down Scythian incursion to the Dniester without  a (ca.) in front of an entire century..the eighth. By the seventh; archaeology shows the change.  There are common horse fitting elements across the breadth of the area disputed (Danube mouth to Volga) earlier than the eighth (a hot technology traveled well) well as some odd regional differences and river valley leapfrogging and other irregularities.  There are also cultural differences evident in burial technology, grave goods, weapons, and pottery that tend to show a difference actually by river basin eastward (Danube mouth, Dniester, Dnieper, Bug,  Don and Volga) ..but support a N. Pontic center of a culture that had no clear borders and extended influence omni directionally. There are also uniquely Cimmerian elements (one example: a specific bone tipped arrow technology widely different from the Scythian) and there was an intrusion (we will call it Scythian).  Also evident is that these so called Cimmerian cultural elements were not extinguished with the Scythian incursion when new elements were introduced..but continued amidst the new or faded slowly. The latter reinforcing the contention that nomadic peoples moving from this center would have been under Scythian domination, but came from Cimmeria and included some autochthonous Cimmerians..and probably were quite logically called "Cimmerian" on more than one occasion.  The area we are talking about is shown below, dots/boxes representing arch sites/finds used in defining Cimmeria and/ or the chronology of change (In short; I give you Cimmeria):

My conclusion: Cimmerians impacting in the West of Anatolia were refugees from Scythian hegemony westward to the Dniester, crossing into Anatolia from Thrace.  References to either Scythians or Cimmerians, however, in the east of Anatolia (By Assyrians or others) after this point were not the same force(s) but force(s)  under Scythian leadership, perhaps multiple instances of intrusion through the Caucasus from Cimmeria < after

> the Scythian intrusion to
the Dniester and domination of all locals remaining in the N. Pontic area.  (That Scythian westward movement originating from a previously established more easterly Steppe position than depicted by dots/boxes  above)(Followed by intrusion into the east of Anatolia precisely from the depicted area.) 

Cu Stima;
Rex H. McTyeire
Bucharest, Romania